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What do y'all think of 5W-20?

Discussion in '5th Gen 4Runners (2010-2024)' started by Singleminded, Dec 28, 2022.

  1. Jan 23, 2023 at 11:48 AM
    #121
    Gumpus

    Gumpus New Member

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    I did read the owner's manual stuff and I do understand your point. Maybe that's the key bottom line, that the engine is tolerant of a range of oils. The data shown by Foothills suggests that there's significant variation across brands and my Mobil 1 0-20 may be a bit thicker than Genuine Toyota 0-20. All I'm saying is that the vast majority of testing behind the 4Runner and the quality checks still done in the engine and vehicle assembly plants every day are going to be with 0-20 so I believe 0-20 is "most proven".
     
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  2. Jan 23, 2023 at 12:43 PM
    #122
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    Good points. I just think that, if the manual recommends higher viscosity for high speeds and extreme load conditions, I might qualify for it.
     
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  3. Jan 23, 2023 at 1:26 PM
    #123
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Wow! Certainly not imprudent. Did you take it in for oil changes, or do it yourself? After that many miles, have you noticed any increased oil consumption?
     
  4. Jan 23, 2023 at 1:28 PM
    #124
    2016Pro

    2016Pro Why all of the Pro hate?

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    Couldn't find any 0-20 at walmart so went with 5-20. Havoline had the best deal on 6 quarts for $22. Came in a bag that was in a cardboard box.
     
  5. Jan 23, 2023 at 1:40 PM
    #125
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    I find it interesting that my 21 manual omits the viscosity/temp chart. And it doesn’t specify the allowable thicker viscosities that would be “better suited” for operating at high speed or extreme load.

    These omissions could be viewed as Toyota being fairly permissive regarding allowable viscosities to suit the usage.
     
  6. Jan 23, 2023 at 1:41 PM
    #126
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Congrats! These kinds of success stories are a big reason why I and many others bought a 4R!

    For the record — and as explained on numerous occasions — those of us who do 5k intervals aren’t saying that everyone should. It really depends on conditions.

    That’s why I said that 10k seems imprudent “for a lot of us.” Doesn’t mean it’s imprudent for everyone. A lot of us simply meet the criteria where Toyota itself recommends 5k intervals. Thus, by definition, we’d be imprudent if we ignored those manufacturer recommendations and doubled the interval.
     
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  7. Jan 23, 2023 at 2:47 PM
    #127
    SlvrSlug

    SlvrSlug New Member

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    The area i live in has a temperature range of low 30*s to highs of 115*. Very few of the 30*s and very few of the 115*s but that is the spread. I run 285/70/17 Falken MT’s on 2-lane hwy. roads, up and down hills. I am running 5w-30 and have no qualms about it after looking at the temperature range scale in the manual I am well within the range shown. I have given thought about going to a 0w-30, but for now i am good. I forgot to add that i change oil every 5000 miles, and my Runner is a 2017 with 31,000 miles on it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
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  8. Jan 23, 2023 at 2:55 PM
    #128
    tiap

    tiap New Member

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    According to this Toyota tech, they call for 10k mile oil changes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJhFAwFv-O0
     
  9. Jan 23, 2023 at 2:58 PM
    #129
    Scotty4run

    Scotty4run New Member

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    Seems like more oil would flow through a bearing if the oil were lower viscosity. More oil flow carries away more heat. Seems like a good thing. Also, the book says "may be better suited...". Not sure why they would not just recommend 5w 30 if there was some advantage.
     
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  10. Jan 23, 2023 at 3:11 PM
    #130
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    You seem to have missed the point of that video.

    And the part of the owners manual that recommends 5k mile intervals for several situations that are common for the 4R owners on this forum. Eg driving off road. Or with heavy loads. Or towing. Or extended high speeds. Or frequent short trips. Or very high or low temperatures.
     
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  11. Jan 23, 2023 at 3:30 PM
    #131
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Is this a new standard that all oil makers are moving to?
     
  12. Jan 23, 2023 at 4:05 PM
    #132
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Perhaps because that would be a restriction that they feel is not necessary?

    If foreign markets run much heavier oil (like the 20w50 in the FJ w the same engine in Saudi Arabia), maybe it’s toyota’s way of saying the engine will run a variety of viscosities to suit how and where it’s used (be it 5w20, 5w30, 10w-30, etc)
     
  13. Jan 23, 2023 at 4:59 PM
    #133
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    Maybe they figure that 0W-20 is ideal for the way that most people will drive these 4Runners, and that higher viscosity is better suited for those who are harder on their vehicle. Otherwise, why would they bother printing it in the manual?

    Nobody here is recommending that everyone should switch to heavier oil. I'm just going off of what the manual says.
     
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  14. Jan 23, 2023 at 5:42 PM
    #134
    tiap

    tiap New Member

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    How so ???

    Thanks for the clarification ;)
     
  15. Jan 23, 2023 at 6:26 PM
    #135
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    The video was all about him showing how he disagrees with 10k oil change intervals. The engine he tore down showed was regularly maintained at 10k intervals, and he said the the piston rings got gummed up to the point of seizing. His opinion is that it can avoided with more frequent changes, and that a 5k interval is worth the cost if intend on making it last.
     
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  16. Jan 23, 2023 at 7:06 PM
    #136
    tiap

    tiap New Member

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    My statement was:

    "According to this Toyota tech, they call for 10k mile oil changes"

    And of course "they" refers to Toyota if that wasn't clear.

    Can't imagine how you construed that to mean I misunderstood the video, it's really pretty basic.
    In the first minute or so he says that Toyota recommends a 10k interval.

    I hope this clarifies any confusion. :thumbsup:
     
  17. Jan 23, 2023 at 7:47 PM
    #137
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    Does the tech in the video also mention that "they" call for 5K oil changes in a lot of situations? If not, maybe the tech misunderstood the manual. :D
     
  18. Jan 23, 2023 at 8:24 PM
    #138
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    I’m more confused about your confusion after your clarification lol.

    Were you saying 10k is the only appropriate interval, and you linked the video to show the mechanic confirm this as a fact?

    Or was it a criticism of the mechanic because he says it’s a 10k interval without saying that toyota actually has different intervals for for normal and severe use?

    Sometimes I miss subtlety or sarcasm, more so in text…apologies if you meant something else that went over my head.
     
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  19. Jan 23, 2023 at 8:26 PM
    #139
    tiap

    tiap New Member

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    Looks like the Tech subscribes to the KISS mythology.
    Simply as he says, don't do 10k changes, why try to read more into the vid.
     
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  20. Jan 23, 2023 at 8:33 PM
    #140
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    The “problem” (in quotes because it’s not a problem for those that dont care), is that 10k is what every customer hears as normal.

    Besides us dweebs in this thread, no other owner really thinks about how to maximize engine life, and don’t consider the marketing side of the 10k interval. So the tech stating 10k interval is really just a reflection of what his customers understand. He was also a toyota master tech, so that was the party line when working at dealers.
     
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  21. Jan 24, 2023 at 4:15 AM
    #141
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    I'm not reading into the video. I didn't watch it.

    I'm aware of the KISS theory. I'm also a fan of the RTFM (Read The Fucking Manual!) theory.

    I don't do 10K changes. I do 5K changes because that's what "they" recommend for the way I drive.

    However, I did 10K changes on my previous 4Runner, which was totally fine for the way it was driven.

    Yes, it would be simpler if they recommended 5K all around. But, there have been plenty of folks who have had oil analysis after 10K and found the oil was still good.


    I do think it's weird how you have to dig in the maintenance schedule to find out what the real recommendations are.

    I also think dealers should be giving customers the option to get it changed at every service interval, and explain the reasoning behind it. If they're going to advertise "free" maintenance for the first 25K (or whatever it is), they should be honest about it.

    OTOH, a lot of those who would benefit from the shorter interval are enthusiasts, and will probably read the manual.
     
  22. Jan 24, 2023 at 6:04 AM
    #142
    bigshmoop

    bigshmoop New Member

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    The fact there are so many different combinations of service intervals and viscosities used and the 4Runner is still known to be ultra reliable should tell us that it honestly doesn't matter all that much. The important thing is that it gets changed on a regular basis.

    I've been an auto enthusiast for years and in every subsegment I poke around there's always a great debate about oil. People tend to take their choices personally and it sparks some heated exchanges. :argue: My buddies and I joke that the three things you shouldn't discuss if you want to remain friends are politics, religion, and motor oil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
  23. Jan 24, 2023 at 7:16 AM
    #143
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Agreed! I started this thread to see if there was data or reasoned opinions about the relative benefits of 5w-20. For example, whether it had any value from a protection standpoint or if a 0-30 or 5-30 would make more sense if your priority is engine life, not mpg.

    There actually is some data on this, though I found it on another forum. It seems that 5-20 starts with a thicker base oil than 0-20 so in fact performs better under stress than 0-20, contrary to the easy assumption that the “20” means they would perform the same once at operating temps.

    But to your point, the 4R engine is hardly finicky. It’s not like we’re talking about huge differences in longevity, except perhaps in more severe use scenarios.

    In short, some choices are no doubt better than others, but all of the main choices are reasonable.
     
  24. Jan 24, 2023 at 7:32 AM
    #144
    Motopato

    Motopato New Member

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    Regarding oil change intervals, the owners manual recomendation here (Chile) is every 10.000 kms (6.214 mi), in standard driving conditions. So it seems to me that 5.000 mi. intervals are not wrong.
     
  25. Jan 24, 2023 at 9:56 AM
    #145
    2016Pro

    2016Pro Why all of the Pro hate?

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    I change every 100 miles
     
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  26. Jan 24, 2023 at 10:18 AM
    #146
    nimby

    nimby in the drink

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    Maybe it's just me but the biggest takeaway that I have from this thread is how important the 0w is for minimizing start-up wear with our engines.

    Sounds like 0w30 might be a good option for my climate zone.
     
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  27. Jan 24, 2023 at 10:39 AM
    #147
    Gumpus

    Gumpus New Member

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    image.jpg
    Sure, fair point. And I'm just one guy with one opinion and if I felt compelled to use something other than what is suggested on the oil cap I'd consider 0-30. I just remember working in industry where one dynamometer durability test was hundreds of hours at wide open throttle, and vehicle cooling (including oil temps) was checked when pulling a full trailer load up a 7% grade at Davis Dam for miles...often at wide open throttle depending on the vehicle. All with stock oil. But if I lived in south Florida and used my 4R to pull the stumps I might run 0-30. To be honest the reason I was dumb enough to jump in on an oil thread is that I hate conspiracy theories and the OP is making all kinds of weird statements that suggest that Toyota took their eye off the ball for reliability and that executives over-rode the engineers so us poor customers are victims and that 0-20 is only worth .001 mpg and that fuel economy is the only reason to reduce engine friction (which sucks up about 20% of your engine's power). If one has experience with Lean Product Development one would know the fundamental reasons why an executive would never get involved with such a trivial decision.

    I just don't like conspiracy theories.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
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  28. Jan 24, 2023 at 11:54 AM
    #148
    MidniteTRD

    MidniteTRD New Member

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    all fair considerations. i think much of the deep-dive into further investigation is all based on the fact that we are the only market (to my knowledge) that requires that light of an oil weight in this vehicle. literally everywhere else this thing is sold, gets a range of thicker oils. why would engineers allow that gap given our operating conditions are not so different from other countries? what makes our sales market uniquely different?
     
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  29. Jan 24, 2023 at 12:59 PM
    #149
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Hi, I’m the OP who started this thread. Earlier today I posted a reminder of why I did, what info I was trying to gather. I was simply looking for data and informed opinions about the pros and cons of 5-20 relative to either 0-20 or common choices like 5-30. The thread has certainly spun off in other directions since I started it, which is fine, but that may have contributed to some confusion about who has said what and why.

    Regardless, to be clear, I do think that a fair reading of the evidence points to 0-20 being specified for reasons other than engine life. That does not mean it’s a bad oil. Or that there’s some kind of “conspiracy.” What it may reflect, as I’ve said, is the simple reality that the manufacturer must balance competing priorities when it makes recommendations about things like oil weights and oil change intervals.

    There are economic considerations, environmental considerations, regulatory considerations, performance considerations, marketing considerations and on and on. None of these decisions can — or even should — be made based solely on longevity. And it’s entirely possible — indeed inevitable— that some owners will weigh these many factors differently than the manufacturer has, reflecting their different priorities.

    The fact pattern is absolutely clear that 0-20 is not required by this engine. That truth is evidenced by Toyota’s own words and practices as shown in the owners manual for differing years of this same exact engine — and for the many different countries in which it is sold. The evidence all points clearly to 0-20 being recommended over other weights in the US for mostly MPG. Again, that does not necessarily mean it’s a bad oil generally. None of us think Toyota would be recommending an oil that leads to a high rate of engine problems just to eke out a tiny mpg improvement.

    But it does mean that those of us who prioritize longevity over mpg might reasonably choose a higher weight.

    Anyone who thoughtfully reads all the posts in this thread will see that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
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  30. Jan 24, 2023 at 1:35 PM
    #150
    ElectroBoy

    ElectroBoy Ad astra

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    This has been posted before, but here’s some documentation of the process of how we got to 20 weight oil. AB565CFE-905A-4A91-B2F9-CC3FAD052EB7.jpg

    F9823A8B-34DC-4F39-9E88-516303B406CA.jpg

    9396821A-892B-471E-A9C7-E2A03CC7D88A.jpg
     
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