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Toyota Pricing WOW!!

Discussion in '5th Gen 4Runners (2010+)' started by Yoytota, Jun 14, 2022.

?

Base 6th Gen 4Runner

  1. All Electric $65k

  2. Hybrid Turbo 4 Cylinder 10 speed $48k

  3. It ain't broke so don't f****** fix it $38k

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Jun 23, 2022 at 1:24 PM
    #331
    Spare Parts

    Spare Parts New Member

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    if you company is not allowed to grow, oh wait, your industry is not allowed to grow (no new leases), then you are going to do everything you can to increase your profits while you can. There is no way to convince me that in a capitalist society/world, humans would think any differently. And I never said there was an issue with green energy, you are stereotyping me because I am discussing how our government has made an impact on gas prices.

    Just so you know, I own a Rav4 Prime, also have a 160 watt solar panel and battery pack that I use when I can. So please, don’t try to spin it to something else.

    my question remains, what would you do if your government put a target on your industry and told you no more growth?
     
  2. Jun 23, 2022 at 2:03 PM
    #332
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    This is the problem when we use the term zero-emissions. It focuses the discussion on something that really doesn't matter. It gets everybody distracted from what should be the important thing.

    We really shouldn't care that a vehicle releases zero-emissions! Who cares that it doesnt emit when it’s in motion!?! The emissions were released when it was parked… right down the road, at the power plant! The marketing departments and politicians use of the term have us like little kids that havent realize their chicken nuggets come from a chicken that somebody killed.

    Society has to ask itself why it’s even bothering with EVs? What is the point of it? Why are governments mandating it more and more all over the world? There is only one good reason, and that to become better stewards of the resources the earth has to give. EV’s only play a very small part in this larger picture.

    We are not better stewards if all we do is get very good at shifting pollution from my backyard, to some other poor schmuck’s backward. Currently, EV’s are doing just that, mostly receiving energy from fuel burned somewhere else. That’s why governments should care less about zero emissions, and instead focus on capacity to create ecologically-acceptable energy for them. I’m not sure if tapping Yellowstone park for geothermal is acceptable, but it would probably cover the nations energy needs. Just saying lol:laugh::laugh:

    Right now, these type EV forum discussions focus on how much cheaper it is to run them per mile. But this will only be true for a short time. If everyone needs energy and gasoline is off the table, it’s guaranteed that EVs will become more expensive per mile, and not that far off into the future. This is because we will need to make the the energy from different fuels that are all either much less available than gasoline (solar,hydro, etc), or put even more demand on much dirtier/harmful fuels (natural gas, coal, or petroleum fired energy plants).

    Petroleom/Gasoline has truly been the worlds cheapest and most convenient source of energy, ever! (nuclear fission might be a close second but we’d rather risk spills instead of nuke meltdowns). I think from an emissions standpoint, gasoline probably isnt even that bad considering the amount of energy we use and the alternatives we have. And I have heard modern catalytic systems will currently return cleaner air if it takes in a really polluted city’s air lol.:laugh:

    Hmmm, Yellowstone…
     
  3. Jun 23, 2022 at 2:14 PM
    #333
    Snickel Fritz

    Snickel Fritz Do not develop this member's app

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    I'd like to see a better analysis that takes into account all of the energy, pollution and ancillary effects of fossil fuel vehicles, the same way that every step of EVs are criticized.

    We need gas stations, which also need energy, people, vehicles and fuel to run.
    The solid toxic waste that isn't really recycled, yet is also specific to ICEs is not a small amount... it cannot possibly be.

    We simply choose/chose to ignore the insane bloat that our ENTIRE EXISTENCE is shaped by, all for the sake of internal combustion vehicles, and the unholy profits for the big dogs in the oil industry.
    All of humanity, all of your ancestors, all of your children have come to this point, only to live a very specific, difficult, unhealthy life... a life which only allows acknowledging your humanity on YOUR TIME, because you can't upset the balance of society, or we all feel it. The boat sucks, but we try not to rock it because it's better than sharks, right?

    Now... look around at how much of your physical world is literally made of oil, needs oil, or really only exists because we power everything with oil, and so those things need to exist, in the way that they do, to make this oil lifestyle keep on trucking.
    Trucking... we have to truck oil. Why? Because piping it is incredibly difficult in real life, and isn't practical when you have to deliver it to every corner gas station.
    Aaaaand I am gonna stop because my main points are this;

    1) We all know that our lives already revolve around oil, and if we're honest we should see that it is a major cause for probably most environmental damage at this point, simply because it cannot be otherwise- too much of our world revolves around it, and is dedicated to keeping it this way.

    2) This stuff needs think tanks. We're not that. We aren't even in positions to know the things we'd really need to know, if we want to glean the future. The past didn't happen to us all through one perspective- we all see things differently based on what we are lucky enough to be exposed to, and then technically survive (what doesn't kill us often makes us bitter, disabled, or really stupid).


    We don't have a "4×4" gene. We don't do this because we are called by instinct to experience nature this way.
    We do this because we are social animals, and doing social animal stuff is medicine for the soul in a world full of overcomplicated bullshit. So are a lot of weird things that we do...

    None of us are invested in the future of oil the same way that the oil industry is, even if you're employed by it.
    None of us have the perspective we need (and I wish this weren't so), nor the voices, to form a faithfully correct worldview and then share it wide.
    The oil industry (and many other industries of course) have the second, and don't care about the first. We do.

    Let's not get too heated. We barely know shit and the people we are unintentionally arguing for are off eating kidnapped kids in robes in some lizard dude bunker together while we sit here in the shanties wondering where our kids are, and hating our neighbors because they represent an opposing view that was basically fed to them as an epic trolling.
     
  4. Jun 23, 2022 at 2:32 PM
    #334
    ElectroBoy

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    Every industry is dirty, produces toxic wastes, and “emissions”.

    All this hand wringing about emissions and where they are produced, therefore concluding that EVs aren’t so great…

    Local emissions matter too. Ask the folks who live in LA, Chicago, NYC, Salt Lake City, and many other communities. Even national parks are plagued with poor air quality. ICE vehicles and diesels are major contributors.

    824B37BD-E27B-46BF-AD6B-F4C7D60AE939.jpg
    C79A40F7-6F64-40E0-91AA-AB87CD9E798D.jpg
    DE734D01-F9C5-4596-BC39-E6B3D3F2D45A.jpg
    5F54C6AC-CFD0-4559-AB4F-01E291C112F7.jpg
     
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  5. Jun 23, 2022 at 2:41 PM
    #335
    TRDLE

    TRDLE New Member

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    Those analyses have been done. And they always show that EVs are better for the environment, all factors considered, than ICE vehicles. It's pretty close where electricity is produced by dirty, outdated methods like coal. The advantage shifts hard to EVs in places with more clean energy, such as wind and solar.
     
  6. Jun 23, 2022 at 3:02 PM
    #336
    DogoPilot

    DogoPilot New Member

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    The definition below says nothing about a vehicle much less specifying whether or not it's being driven. The point everyone is trying to make is that the terminology that was created primarily for marketing purposes, does not actually mean EVs are good for the environment. Maybe better in many ways, but to ignore the simple fact that emission are generated during the lifecycle of an EV is just silly. And let's be clear, that is the actual argument being made here; however, you have chosen to ignore that and continue to claim that the definition of word emissions can only possibly be interpreted as something that occurs when a vehicle is being driven.


    e·mis·sion
    /əˈmiSH(ə)n/
    Learn to pronounce

    noun
    plural noun: emissions
    1. the production and discharge of something, especially gas or radiation.
      "the effects of lead emission on health"
     
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  7. Jun 23, 2022 at 4:07 PM
    #337
    TX4runner21

    TX4runner21 New Member

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    Aside from the mental gymnastics some are doing, the whole point has been that EV's are better for the environment and are more efficient. Period.
     
  8. Jun 23, 2022 at 4:08 PM
    #338
    Snickel Fritz

    Snickel Fritz Do not develop this member's app

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    I know there are already major collaborative data efforts, and multiple studies which lay out the true logistical, environmental, even human cultural (some resources are in *very* contested areas) impacts of both. While I know they cannot be perfect models or representations, I generally agree with everything I've seen over the past fifteen or so years. Everything I say here will probably just seem like preaching to the choir to you, honestly.

    I don't want people to click a link that I pasted after googling, because that won't help.
    They'll either be predisposed towards analyzing subjects like these already, or they'll reject the prospect of analysis and instead adopt what they consider to be the most widely accepted stance, which of course is to ignore the (massive, overwhelmingly massive) problems we have to solve in front of us. It's understandable, if still tragic.

    My best sources of information have often been obscure chat archives, where links to studies (often PDFs from universities, sometimes inaccessible), news stories, and dump sites are often shared during debates.

    For the current "debate" of which is "greener", I've already seen the evidence to keep my general viewpoints where they are for now. I'm not rigid, I like to learn... but the evidence is already in favor of transitioning away from fossil fuels, as you seem to be aware.
    No one on the internet arguing against EVs really seems to grasp the overreaching vastness that oil has on our lives, and how much extra energy, time, effort and planetary health is expended because oil-based technology (and the society it created) is so complicated and endangered by disruption.
    The whole jenga tower comes down without oil. Most of our daily efforts revolve around or involve oil, within a few degrees. Oil and electricity are more honest representations of human existence and experience than a picture of a fetus, at this point. Just because the elephant is so big that it's crushed four residential lots, doesn't mean it's not also in the living room.

    Count up the cost of the oil/ICE lifestyle, and consider that solar/EV will have many of the same distribution/utilization dynamics of oil/ICE. The actual physical differences are major at almost every step though, of course.
    Because of the nature of oil being a physical, containable resource which is essentially always going to be made of the same stuff, it has been hoarded and used as a means of power.
    Unless electricity generation, storage and distribution are somehow kept tethered to only a few key resources which can be physically hoarded, I don’t see how solar/EV can spawn anything like the web of power that oil has. Oil itself has spawned a an enormous amount of wealth and power across many surrounding fields, but it's all dependent on crude oil, period.
    Electricity is far less "centralized", and can be used with alternative materials instead of always relying on just one substance.
    Lithium isn't the only technology for storing electricity, this is a science that is constantly working to improve, and because it's not dependent on something that we can only get from a despot, there isn't some oil-cartel-level effort to keep the science of electricity from evolving. There will always be efforts to keep profits among industries, but even the mining giants can't flex the kind of muscle that oil can. It's a much less corrupt field, for now.

    That's an aspect that I think not many people consider.
     
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  9. Jun 23, 2022 at 4:45 PM
    #339
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    Yes, we agree on this!

    But, some are trying to argue that they are truly "zero emission" vehicles when it's not true. As new, they create more pollution than an ICE to produce. Over the lifetime, they more than make up for it (some more than others depending on how energy is produced). But, they still require energy that is generally produced in a way that creates emissions.

    And, they have limitations that make them unappealing to some, including myself. That doesn't mean I'm against EV's. I don't think anyone here really is. People just want options.

    A plug in hybrid 4Runner would be extremely appealing to me. But, full electric is a no-go until things get better.

    Edit:. And, what you're calling "mental gymnastics" is what I would call "looking at the whole picture".
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  10. Jun 23, 2022 at 5:14 PM
    #340
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    It seems to work better if you open the door windows first. And, don't open the rear window until you're moving.
     
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  11. Jun 23, 2022 at 5:57 PM
    #341
    DogoPilot

    DogoPilot New Member

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    I would argue that if that were truly the point you've been trying to make, it wouldn't have been necessary to ask the group to learn the definition of "emissions". It seems to me that the point you've actually been trying to make is as follows: Since an EV doesn't generate emissions while driving it, the term "zero emissions" is completely accurate and no consideration should be given to the fact that emissions are, in fact, generated throughout the life of an EV.
     
  12. Jun 23, 2022 at 6:02 PM
    #342
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    I guess everyone has their own way of defining things. Hell, we have people in this country who can't even define what a woman is! o_O
     
  13. Jun 23, 2022 at 6:06 PM
    #343
    DogoPilot

    DogoPilot New Member

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    I'm pretty liberal when it comes to a lot of things but some the stuff going on in the world right now is just so over the top, it's nuts.
     
  14. Jun 23, 2022 at 6:23 PM
    #344
    Snickel Fritz

    Snickel Fritz Do not develop this member's app

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    Is this where I suggest that anyone who is feeding the Netflix demon, watch the latest Ricky Gervais standup? I still have twenty minutes or so left but that shit was hysterical!
     
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  15. Jun 23, 2022 at 6:38 PM
    #345
    7harper7

    7harper7 New Member

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    And what happens to the power grids with all these EV vehicles . We have already had 2 brownouts here and this is the first week of summer. 7pm last saturday on a 100 degree day and power goes out .
    When I lived in Texas we had rolling brownouts all the time. Not enough Electricity now,so lets throw millions of high electric demand cars at it and see if we can collapse the whole system.
    https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-an...be-coming-to-your-state-heres-how-to-prepare/
     
  16. Jun 23, 2022 at 6:51 PM
    #346
    Spare Parts

    Spare Parts New Member

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    That’s why we need to get more solar on homes, we need to use these roofs we have kicking around. I would to have loved to see an integrated solar panel on our PHV, think about how many cars just sit in the sun all day. If we could harness the power of the sun for like 1 day, it would power the earth for like a year.

    Now, the waste of the dead solar panels down the road becomes the next factor
     
  17. Jun 23, 2022 at 8:08 PM
    #347
    mwill07

    mwill07 New Member

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    A drive to increase profits is irrelevant to government limiting growth. Everyone wants to improve profits.

    If government said my industry couldn't grow, I would pivot to a new growth area. This isn't hard.
     
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  18. Jun 23, 2022 at 8:31 PM
    #348
    suaveflooder

    suaveflooder New Member

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    In the economy we are living in, as good as that sounds, it’s not always feasible. Tons of businesses closing at the moment.
     
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  19. Jun 23, 2022 at 8:46 PM
    #349
    mac1usa

    mac1usa New Member

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    You should feel privileged that you can endure a brown out or power outage in an effort for sustainability.

    I am sure the Chinese and Indians would gladly take a minor power outage to help the climate.

    Plus your conservation allows those more important than you to fly around in private jets explaining these benefits.

    This transition is really a win/win.
     
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  20. Jun 23, 2022 at 8:55 PM
    #350
    7harper7

    7harper7 New Member

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    This thread(friendly discussion) is all over the place. Back on the pricing subject.lol What does everyone think of Toyotas new EV suv. The BZ4X is starting at $42k. Kind of fugly with it's black plastic fenders IMO.
    https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/bz4x/

    I think Toyota ,more then any other manufacturer had/has it right with their Hybrid lineup and fully expect the 6th Gen 4Runner to be offered in a Hybrid. A vehicle that charges it's own battery seems like the way to go to save gas and lesson it's carbon footprint and not have the worry of the where the next charging station is so you can sit there and wait for it to charge.

    Something like 80% of lithium batteries are made in Asia with China controlling over 50% is what's partly driving this EV onslaught .Samsung,Sony and Panasonic are the big 3 in Lithium batteries. It's all about the money,they could care less about the environment and have the record to prove it. We do have one Lithium mine in the USA and I don't think any lithium battery manufacturers, maybe Elon does.
    https://www.onecharge.biz/blog/u-s-role-in-global-lithium-battery-manufacturing/#:~:text=China dominates the battery market,reserves are located in Bolivia.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  21. Jun 23, 2022 at 8:57 PM
    #351
    mac1usa

    mac1usa New Member

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    Ironically from what I read Tesla has not been invited to any meetings in EVs because they are not unionized.

    But to your point some governments do issue vehicles to its citizens. Iran as an example had its own car company at one time. Perhaps that is a good idea as well. We could all drive simplistic government mandated vehicles with regulated ranges etal.

    This would certainly give us all less to debate. It could be like the days of the Model T you can have any color you want as long as it’s black.
     
  22. Jun 23, 2022 at 9:15 PM
    #352
    Snickel Fritz

    Snickel Fritz Do not develop this member's app

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    Personally, I hate it. It looks too big, too over-styled, appears to lack visibility, and the few bits of blurb I read showed that it's basically going to be a touch-screen appliance with wheels.

    I want to see something for the common people, something basic and rugged, with a good range and simpler geometry. An egg shaped, kei-sized minivan similar to the Space Cruiser or Previa, with a couple of motors and the ability to upgrade/replace battery packs? Sold. Offer it in bare bones/fleet trims, off road trims, luxury touring trims? Sold to me, you, and everyone's momma.

    We need complete redesigns from manufacturers, and instead all we've been getting is the same crap. We could have highly useful and widely affordable vehicles right now, but every manufacturer of every product seems locked into the tactic of only making and selling expensive, disposable junk... and telling us all that it's because what we, "the market" demand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
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  23. Jun 23, 2022 at 9:23 PM
    #353
    ElectroBoy

    ElectroBoy Ad astra

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    I agree and I’m disappointed. It looks like Toyota is trying too hard to emulate Tesla. I hope too much of this doesn’t work it’s way into the 6th Gen 4Runner.
     
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  24. Jun 23, 2022 at 9:43 PM
    #354
    SR5 Limited

    SR5 Limited New Member

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    Is that the car that Kimmel just cracked a joke about the wheels falling offf?
     
  25. Jun 23, 2022 at 9:46 PM
    #355
    Snickel Fritz

    Snickel Fritz Do not develop this member's app

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    Isn't it sad? Everyone in a position of automotive corporate authority (that affects the US market) seems so out of touch and unimaginative, during a time when we probably need it the most. Tesla should not be emulated by anyone, least of all legacy companies. The *early hopes and promises* of Tesla had a few gems worth aiming for, if memory serves. The reality of what they are, especially compared to what we all know is possible... that is the stuff of cautionary tales, from QA to HR.
     
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  26. Jun 23, 2022 at 9:55 PM
    #356
    SR5 Limited

    SR5 Limited New Member

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    There’s more to it than that. It’s the design can’t be copied from another manufacturer?
     
  27. Jun 23, 2022 at 10:01 PM
    #357
    4runGirl88

    4runGirl88 Get a little mud on the tires!

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    It's a tad better than the fugly Hyundai Ionic a coworker of mine drives.
     
  28. Jun 23, 2022 at 10:02 PM
    #358
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Yes!!! Versatility, durability, and serviceability! I’d love generator style hybrid, like diesel-electric trains. The ICE engine could be there to service the electrical system directly, no transmission required. It could kick on for longer road trips if necessary, to top off the battery, or create electricity directly for the electric motors. Make the ICE engine compatible with gasoline, propane, or natural gas. And love the idea developing a standard for batteries. Something that can be quick-replaced and swappable between cars.
     
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  29. Jun 23, 2022 at 10:47 PM
    #359
    4runningMan

    4runningMan New Member

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    Ever notice how the “scientists” have models for everything? Pandemics, economics, weather, etc…

    I wonder why we’ve never seen one for high electric demand vehicles. Shouldn’t that be front and center? I wanna see the end result of a model where everyone on the planet that has an ICE vehicle has an EV instead. Publish the results. Show us the infrastructure we will need and the dollar cost per family. I’d settle for a US model only for starters. And show us where we’ll all end up.

    And then we can decide if we think it’s worth it (lol). Printing money will only go so far. But run the model with $10 trillion printed. Then $20 trillion printed. Do we need to go to $100 trillion?

    An interesting thing to me is how so much of this hinges on people’s beliefs about climate change (on one hand) vs government rule by fiat (on the other). Might be two sides of the same coin.

    But I’m kind of an idiot. I don’t know much about this stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
    mac1usa likes this.
  30. Jun 23, 2022 at 11:13 PM
    #360
    Snickel Fritz

    Snickel Fritz Do not develop this member's app

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Member:
    #7385
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    697
    Alcohol, hydrogen, or bio-diesel hybrid would be so cool, but even a decent gasoline hybrid tiny van would get me through the next decade, if not the rest of my life.
    I was just thinking about swappable packs to shorten "charge" time, but that would present some real practical challenges with the jabronis among us. I can see the "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DRIFT-EJECT BATTERY PACK INTO RECEPTACLE" warning signs already lol.
     
    McSpazatron likes this.

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