The beast has left the building...

Another good and thoughtful post, CB. It’s been a pleasure reading your comments on this thread. I also applaud your patience — ya got more than I do.

The video had me thinking about the Tesla vs 4R in those kinds of conditions. It might be worth reminders for the doubters about what really matters in either snow or off road:

1. Tires
2. Ground clearance
3. A system for distributing torque between the four wheels

As should be obvious, there’s no reason an EV can’t match an ICE on the first two. Indeed, ground clearance can be better on an EV because there are far fewer mechanicals — driveshaft, exhaust, oil pans etc — down below. EVs often have a very flat and armored underbelly.

What may be less obvious (to some) is that EVs are inherently more capable when it comes to #3. The ability to have separate motors on the front and rear axles, or on each of the four wheels, is a huuuge boon for 4 wheeling. No mechanical 4WD system will ever be able to react and adjust as quickly or as precisely as a system based on electric motors.

This is why I’ve remarked elsewhere on the forum that it won’t be that many years before EVs become the no-brainer choice. They’re simply going to meet consumer needs better than ICE in a very large majority of use cases.

They’ll never be better than ICE in every single way (I’ll miss those engine and exhaust sounds!). But they will be better in most of the ways that matter to most people most of the time — and that definitely includes off roaders.

 

@Singleminded
I heard rumors that Rivian is a total beast in offroading. In 1-2 years, GMC and Chevy trucks will be out. More and more SUVs will be 2 or 4 motors drive. At that moment, it will be a question of software, they are all direct drive.
I haven't gotten a chance yet to drive it on snow/ice to see how it is, but I am getting winter tires 100%. Them 19"s are not cheap.
All these electric trucks and SUVs are going to give the 4R and Jeeps a run for their money.
I will actually google to see if anybody got the new F150 lightning offroad yet.

 

I agree with you on this point. That is my big fear, I am not a new car buyer, I'd rather buy something 5 years or older. But when it comes to EV's, I'm not going to buy something with half or more than half of its useful life already depleted.

Hopefully by that time they'll come up with a better battery solution, technology is moving fast. Back in the day with internal combustion, you were lucky if you got 50 or 60,000 miles out of something, that's barely four or five years worth of driving. My grandfather told me back in the day you'd have to replace your
car every 4 or 5 years because they would just rust out and fall to pieces.

I'm not going to presume what the OP will do, but somebody in his case buying new can pay it off, and move on to the next one in 5 years. As a Tesla it will probably still have decent resale, they are quite popular and will probably remain so. A Hyundai or Ford EV, probably not so much, so one just needs to be smart when they buy initially.

I'm starting to think that leasing will be the way to go. Granted that's not for everybody, but when they have a shorter shelf life, I can see situations where you lease the car for the first 3 years or whatever, turn it back in, they refurb it, and then sell or lease it to the next person. Granted this is not apples to apples, but that's what we do with our forklifts at work. We buy the refurb ones that come with the new paint job and a new battery, and we've gotten going on 10 years worth of trouble-free service with them.

I'm not going to stress about it yet, we probably still have a good decade to go before they're really widespread. But like I said though, I'm just worried about having to shell out a year's salary on a vehicle, which is an insane thing to have to do.

 

I've watched a few YT videos of Rivians in action, they are very impressive off-road. And as far as water, one of them drove through water in Florida that was over the hood, and then had to tow out a built Jeep XJ that got stuck in the same puddle.

Another channel took a few of them over one of the mountain passes in Colorado, maybe not Black Bear but something similar. They did use a good amount of juice going up, but using regenerative braking on the way down, they actually restored the power level to near what it was when they started.

TFL Truck briefly owned a Lightning and did a little bit of off-road testing with it, they also did a series where they drove it to Alaska via the Dalton highway.

 

I like water when I'm thirsty and coffee when I wake up.

One isn't better than the other.

They serve different purposes and tastes.

 

@Trail Runnah
Oh yes, thanks for that. I used to be all over TFL truck when I had my Rams. They are pretty cool.

 

You make coffee with water
I drink coffee to stay up at night if needed. They go hand in hand in different situations

 

At this point, I don’t plan to, started to get spoiled with the new vehicles. However, my son has discussed picking up a used Prius and replacing the battery. He had done a ton of research last year, but we convinced him to not spend the money, as he headed off to college this year.

I looked for what it would cost to replace the rav4 prime battery, which is what we have. I would not go full electric yet, unless it was an extra vehicle. We have gone months with putting fuel in the Rav4 prime, what an awesome feeling. But when we travel, it’s gas and go.
I bought my 4Runner before things change, this way I’ll have time for stuff to get worked out before I need to replace due to the vehicle being old.

so let me ask you this, how many 8 to 10 year old vehicles that have 150k miles on them would you buy?

Toyota has great resale value, but let’s not forget the Toyota tax to get one. I can also talk about my first Toyota truck, that yota bought back because the frame was no longer safe. It worked out great for me, as the extra money they gave me, allowed me to buy a new Tacoma with a used vehicle sized loan.

I have a 2011 Subaru sitting in my drive way with 98k on it, and I can see that it’s going to take a lot of maintenance money to keep it going.

 

I bought my Cummins with 100k and it had a bent front axle. A rich rancher bought it brand new for his daughter, a completely loaded 4wd Laramie but she let her boyfriend JUMP it at Pismo! Other than the tacoed axle it was pristine, garage kept and daddy had it dealer serviced regularly. I got it dirt cheap and put $3.5K into replacing and upgrading the entire front end. You know what they say about Dodge Cummins? It’s the best hotdog you’ve ever had in a moldy bun. Unbelievable engine with a dodge body.
It is the only vehicle I have ever had I would keep over my 4Runners.
Prior to the new 4Runner we had 2016 CRV, it was a very good car but..but boring. So I sold a 32mpg car to buy a 20mpg 4R.
Why? We are seniors and don’t need a commute car and have reached a point in our lives of “You can’t take it with you” after pinching pennies our whole lives.
We like Toyotas we decided to treat ourselves with a nice new loaded AG ORP, it is a mall crawling garage Queen. We have had it over 4 months and only 1,600 miles on it. So actually we really don’t have a dog in this mpg/EV fight. We take the Dodge/travel trailer on trips and I use Goldie for my local errands. The only time the new one comes out of the garage is when my wife comes along(she is unable to drive anymore). I think in the future the 5th gens will be thought of like the FJ40 is now. I’ll probably keep Goldie for a few more years and give it to one of my boys, after all I did bring them both home from the hospital in it. It is an adopted member of the family.
To make a short story long, I personally think it is a bit early in the EV game to invest $50k into a vehicle that will need another ~10 grand thrown at it in just 10 years. A hybrid is the way to go for now if I was commuting.
If possible I would look for a cherry 4 cylinder 1st gen Tacoma for your kid, very hard to find though.

 

@2ndGen22re
Different strokes for different folks.
First of all, this thread is no a fight. Some might want to make it that, but it is not. It's about my choices after the 4Runner and what I cannot do anymore after owning one for 2 years. The discussion went sideways lots, but the thread is still here, surprisingly. I am also interested in other people's opinion on what's next on their plate. It seems plenty here want to learn more about my experience as well. Not like this is my 5th EV.
Second: hybrids need batteries too. As a matter of fact, they are worse than both gas and EVs. They try to incorporate both technologies. Imagine how complicated that thing is. Heavy. Impossible to work on. I would get a gas engine and be done with it.
That 3500 is sweet, if you have a need for it. As a daily driver is just a waste. No matter what planet you are from, a Cummins 3500 is totally overkill. My 3 Rams were all crap. The Hemi had issues, the V6 has issues, the older hemi with the v6 was making weird noises.....
Anyway - in the past 22 years I had 16 cars. I stopped buying them used back in 2008. All my used cars had issues, mechanical, electric and the nicest one of them all, when the odometer on my Roadmaster rolled from 199.999, it went straight to 300.000; you could see the screwdriver scratches on the numbers. After that, no more. There is an issue? Straight at the dealer, fix it. The longest car I ever had was a Chevy cobalt, 2 door. I put 100.000 miles in 2 years and a half. Never had an issue. I owned all types of vehicles, minus a van. One CVT, never again, LOL.
Why would I start buying used now? The price of used cars is more than brand new, its been like this for what? 2 years now ?
Third: there is a very big possibility I am going back to work full time in the office. We will need to buy another car. It will definitely be gas. We are thinking a Rav4, not the prime and not the hybrid.

I do not have any updates just yet besides my 1.75 cents a mile compared to the tank. I just top it off every night, I have a full tank every day.
The idea of the thread was that I chose to move away from gasoline, even though I can afford it. I felt robbed every morning. And raped. Some days, even without the Vaseline.
Give me a 4Runner with the mpg of a Rav4 and I would have never gotten the EV.

 

You should hang onto your 4R as long as possible but I’m not in your shoes. Leasing might be a good short term solution and you get to see what the future brings. I just got through reading that vehicle repossessions have doubled among prime borrowers. I think some folks got in over their heads and with the current inflation they have to default so there should be a lot of good nearly new used vehicles out there soon to swoop on for a good price.
I’m lucky….sort of….being a senior(closer to the grave) and retired and financially secure. We could’ve bought a hybrid or a EV this last summer rather than a 4R but we just “wanted” it, the wife fell in love with the AG color so I had to get a TRD…oh darn.

 

The bottom is currently falling out of the used car market. I just finished an article about auto repossessions have doubled among prime borrowers(inflation victims). Used car prices are going to tank with inventory doubling. A cherry RAV4 would be ideal.

 

So maybe I lucked out as they gave me prime $$$ for the 4R trade-in.

I am sure bad things will happen, they are talking about another rate increase here, half or even 3/4 of a point. I see many vacation properties for sale, boats, ATVs, seadoos....they started falling through the cracks, thats for sure.

 

I'm kind of conflicted, on one hand. I want to keep the 4Runner for as long as it will go, which is probably another 10 years as long as I can keep the frame from rotting out from underneath it. On the other hand, I wonder if maybe I should just sell it now while it's still worth something.

Problem with selling it is that there's really nothing that I'd be excited to replace it with. Any of the new hybrids or more fuel efficient vehicles cost much more, and I don't want to get into a car payment situation. I like not having a car payment, and I don't ever want to have one again.

Actually, to back up a little bit, I wouldn't necessarily get some sort of a hybrid or super fuel efficient vehicle. I actually did the math when gas was still at 5/gallon in my area, with the difference in price between my 4R and a new RAV4 hybrid, it would still take me at least 6 years to even break-even on that, if gas was to stay at $5. Now that it's in the 3.50 range, it would take even longer.

Honestly, if I do sell it, it's more for the reason that I don't need a 20K vehicle parked out on the street, when a 10K vehicle will serve me just fine (especially for off-roading, I still think the 4Runner is nice enough and valuable enough that I don't want to bang it up off-road).

I still have 20 plus years to go toward retirement (if ever) and I honestly don't think I'll ever be financially secure enough to go out and buy a new vehicle. It took me too long to realize that having a nice vehicle wasn't all that important, so I'm planning on this 4Runner being the most expensive vehicle I'll ever own. I'm really hoping this EV thing doesn't make me go back on that. I think I saw Ford was coming out with an electric Transit, that may be a good option since I'd probably have to live in it, lol.

 

Yes, your timing was perfect.

 

One thing you left out…..EVs are VERY heavy. The Ford lighting is close to 9k#! My 7k# Cummins is so front end heavy It sinks like a rock in soft stuff despite larger tires. My ancient 4R will wheel circles around it staying on top of the soft stuff.

 

The Model Y is about 200lb lighter than the 4Runner.

 

Good post. Keeping what you have is often smarter financially than trading it in on something new. And if you prioritize the longevity of your vehicle over most other considerations, it's very hard to beat the 4Runner -- don't matter whether the alternatives are ICE or EV. And then there's the very fair point that EV longevity isn't yet proven in the real world. There's some indication that today's batteries can last 200K miles, and the tech keeps improving. So there may come a day when it's clear that EVs are a smarter choice if you want to keep your car a long time. The cost of changing battery packs could end up being relatively cheap, and the overall cost of ownership over many years could be cheaper than your typical ICE -- especially when you consider the relative mechanical simplicity of the rest of the car. The opposite may also prove true. We just don't know yet.

Longevity combined with a ton of utility were my main reasons for getting the 4R. I envisioned keeping it well into the age of EV dominance, just so I had such a vehicle with whatever relative benefits remain from ICE at that time. But my calculation is morphing a bit now. For one thing, I'm getting a new ICE sports car, so that could be a long term ICE in my garage, meaning I wouldn't have to rely on electricity alone for transportation. So my willingness to consider an EV replacement for the 4R is based in part on the fact that I'd still have an ICE to use when/if needed. For another, I'm increasingly seeing the potential for EVs to have not only their obvious advantages but also greater utility. In particular, the potential for one to charge their home. And to charge at their home. And potentially to fuel up when service stations are down or gas is otherwise hard to come by. Even the possibility of fueling up off the grid, especially if one can get their home off the grid. Those are vey big potential plusses for EVs, making them more useful overall than ICE.

Having said all that, I think what I'd really like is to keep the 4R. And the ICE sports car. And then add an EV truck to the stable. But, well, that's a bridge too far financially. I'm very fortunate I can currently afford both the 4R (or its EV replacement) and the sports car at the same time.

 

@Singleminded
Excellent post.

 

Toyota has the 1990 2nd gen at 3,780#
970# lighter than 5th gens 4750# curb weight.
The 5th gen is a tank, my 2nd gen might be even lighter since it is a 4 cylinder/manual stripper.
My 2nd gen is kind of a sleeper with a rear Detroit TruTrac and with just 30/9.50 x 15 tires @18psi combined with lighter weight surprises a lot of folks where it can go.
With the TruTrac I can go places with 2wd that use to require 4wd with the open diff. Contemplating one for the front. I am fortunate to have BLM in my backyard.
The only drawback of the TruTrac is they don’t work in reverse, the good news is they work fantastic in forward along with no air plumbing or wiring and is totally unnoticeable in daily driving on the street.
The 5th gen won’t see any real 4wd action until the “newness” wears off or until Goldie goes to one of my offspring…..Probthe sa

 

My 2019 Limited with 3rd row is 5060lbs. Only mod is Ironman lift + standard load 285/70R17 tires.

 

Hot

 

Toyota.com has the limited at 4805# and the ORP at 4750#.

 

I see.. The actual weight of mine are 5000lbs for the TRD Pro and 5060 for my Limited.

 

Toyota.com has the Pro at 4750 like ORP as well…..
maybe dry weight?
23gal gas X 7#/gal =163#
Plus coolant + ATF + gear oils?

 

My TRD Pro - 5000lbs - Empty vehicle with full tank of gas, additional weight RCI skids + RSG sliders, and maybe few lbs for additional lights & wiring
My Limited - 5060lbs - Empty vehicle with full tank of gas, additional Ironman shocks (I guess heavier than stock xreas) + 285/70R17 SL tires

 

1st month update.
I see the poll is an 80% no at this time, which is understandable. To be honest, I did not expect it to be this high against.
Due to some family issues, we were not able to drive as much as we wanted to. We only did 1660 miles this month, which puts us at around 20.000 miles per year. We missed two trips to Cleveland (over 600 miles each), a few camping trips and we are still working from home.
Snow driving: a few nasty days this year, we got some of the 6ft storm around Buffalo, it wasn't pretty. It handles well, the AWD system is decent, I do not have winter tires yet as everything is sold out. The 4R with Falkens does better in deep snow and slush, but the Tesla is better in compacted, thin snow. Probably the AWD against the RWD.
Towing: we didnt have a chance to tow the trailer just yet. More to come later on.
Issues: none at this time.
Costs: I know lots of you are looking at this. We didnt go anywhere at all far from home, so we didnt even get the chance to use a supercharger. All charging was done at home, mostly off-peak. We are at 40$ cad ($29.79usd) for 1660 miles, 31 days. This puts it at around 55.72 miles per 1 US dollar. The other way around, this is 1.7 US cents per mile. Using a supercharger will definitely change the numbers. I think I saw that using a supercharger most of the time will be the same as a Corolla level on gas alone.
No complaints yet. Just started to see the real cold weathe driving, will post again with the range loss. Not like the 4R would be better in the cold.
Verdict: so far, we do not miss the 4Runner. I wish there was just a tad higher of the ground. I think we got used to the trucks as well, and the 4R is definitely higher.

We miss the 4Runner while the storm is raging, I'll be honest on that. That beast never let us down and it made me feel we could go anywhere anytime. I dont have the same feeling with the Tesla, maybe at least not yet. The all-seasons definitely to no help.

Another update in 30 days.

 

Man, that mileage cost impressive! I think most people don’t realize how much more expensive ice vehicles are to operate fuel wise. Also crazy to think newer T4R’ s are heavier than my 4th gen with a v8

 

I've heard conflicting reports regarding cost of electricity and operating EVs.

I know folks in some areas find that EVs are more expensive to operate than ICE vehicles. I believe that is the case down in California. Up here, we rely on hydro-power from the Snake River dams that the environmentalists have so far been unsuccessful in removing. If they succeed, it will cause our costs to skyrocket. We currently export excess power to the California grid and if the dams are removed, then California is doubly screwed.

I heat with natural gas and use electric for water heating, lights, cooking, washer and dryer, and supplemental heat. My total level-pay bill per month, year round, that includes electric and natural gas is $100. I'm very happy with that amount.

My current rate is $.08 per KwH. Last month I used 344 kWh, or about $30 worth of electricity.

My little garage has 220v service to it, and I commute 15 miles each way to work. An EV would be great for me. But, since my current gas bill is around $150 a month or less (I also have a 2007 Chevy HHR that I drive to work most of the time), there is no way that buying an EV would save me any money in the long run.

In order for an EV to make economic sense, you have to both drive a ton of miles and pay a ton for gas, which the OP does, so good for him. I respect his decision and reasoning.

For the vast majority of people, an EV is simply an expensive virtue-signaling device that actually harms the planet more than the typical ICE vehicle.

 

Those are interesting weights. My 2023 J150 series SR5 2WD is listed at 4,400 pounds on toyota.com, a full 405 pounds less than the listed weight of the limited and a full 700+ pounds less than my J100 series Land Cruiser.