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Shock’ing Discovery

Discussion in '5th Gen 4Runners (2010-2024)' started by Slopemaster, Jul 2, 2022.

  1. Jul 9, 2022 at 5:38 PM
    #61
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    I’m still researching all the different flavors available. Far too many choices. Still leaning towards the Bilstein 6112/5160 considering price point and wide popularity.

    I had a thought. If I measured between the bump stops and the structure they would hit at full compression, then subtract that distance from the current distance between the top of the tires to the fender, the wouldn’t that give me the distance I can reduce the current lift without worrying about the tire hitting the fender?

    I would like to reduce the lift some to gain the benefit of articulation.
     
  2. Jul 9, 2022 at 9:53 PM
    #62
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    I had the front end jacked up all the way and took a couple of pics. Plenty of room between the UCA and the coil.
    EAF469DA-2007-4ECE-8208-D1386E98D936.jpg


    This pic is shot straight down between the gap
    35440CDF-09C0-4A55-AFB1-BD491A82A468.jpg
     
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  3. Jul 9, 2022 at 11:54 PM
    #63
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    Thank you for posting the pictures. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe your post #24, you are running a Dobinson 2.5” lift, correct?

    Your UCA to coil clearance looks very good. I would like to keep my stock UCA’s.

    My primary goal is to not have to creep over rough off road trails yet not ride like a lumber wagon on the street.

    What was actually limiting your full droop? The shock?

    I’m thinking I’d like to try and go with 1-1.5” up front and 0” lift in the back.
     
  4. Jul 10, 2022 at 2:55 AM
    #64
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    This is about the best video I’ve found regarding suspension disassembly and reassembly.

    The only thing they don’t address is alignment or diff drop.
    I wish I would have known about Wescott Design when I purchased my 4R.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3gAqzoZ4Hs
     
  5. Jul 10, 2022 at 11:00 AM
    #65
    McSpazatron

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    Yes. It’s a dobinsons IMS system. As Im trying to synthesize all of the suspension knowledge Im picking up…I believe the front shock is responsible for limiting droop.

    The i have the IMS 50700 front shock (aka: strut) is not an extended or long travel shock. Dobinsons list the max extended length of the strut is 560mm. Im not sure what stock shock extended length is, but I imagine it’s comparable.

    That made me realize (again, but in a different way lol) that in your situation, the 1.5 spacer essentially made it act like a long travel shock (at full droop). The 1.5 in was added directly to the extended length measurement. But only without all the other things you need to do to make sure a long travel suspension doesnt crash into itself, like longer UCA and LCAs or at least those that have proper clearance.

    I’m not sure how often you think that you reached full droop when off roading. But when you get a chance, it might be a good idea for you to raise it up and give the spindle some good tugs to see if you feel any movement at the ball joint on the UCA. You’d hate for that thing to pop out on you. Is the 4runner still under warranty? Yiu could let the dealer that installed the spacer lift know about the interference you discovered…you never know if they’ll throw some money at you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2022
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  6. Jul 10, 2022 at 5:00 PM
    #66
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    Thank you for the additional information. I agree with you that my front spacer’s are causing it to act as an extended travel shock. I’m fairly confident that I haven’t damaged anything, yet. My off-roading has been fairly mild with no wheels in the air stuff. The main stress I have put on the vehicle is the tires.

    The rear shocks have been abused somewhat due to the shock travel being limited to just over an inch.

    Hindsight is 20/20, I should have stuck to dealer add ons that I fully understood such as window tint. ;)

    If I had a do over I would have still bought the Pro rims but stuck with 265’s and NO suspension modifications!

    It is what it is and I guess I reserve the right to be smarter today then I was yesterday.
     
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  7. Jul 10, 2022 at 7:30 PM
    #67
    BionicRandy

    BionicRandy New Member

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    I really doubt anything is damaged. People put spacer lifts on trucks and offroad the crap out of them and they have zero issues. I don’t know for sure but it seems that as long as the UCAs are not hitting the springs about the only thing that will happen is all of the effects of a harsh ride - stuff coming loose, phantom rattles, premature bushing failure, and worst case broken strut. It makes the truck SIT like a long travel, but not ride like one lol. The spacer kills the uptravel.
     
  8. Jul 10, 2022 at 7:46 PM
    #68
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    There have been failures. The devil is in the variables though, so that’s why there is a real possibility Something might break. I recall one thread not too long ago where spacers caused ball joint failure on the UCA…which is why I suggested checking out the play in @Slopemaster ’s 4runner. Especially since he is having UCA contact with the spring, and he already might be at the ball joints limit at the same time
     
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  9. Jul 10, 2022 at 7:49 PM
    #69
    BionicRandy

    BionicRandy New Member

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    Wow I don’t understand the physics of that, but I am no expert for sure. I know my truck rode like shit with that spacer lift!
     
  10. Jul 10, 2022 at 7:59 PM
    #70
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    It’s literally like the knuckles on your fingers. They reach the limit when the two bone sections form a straight line. You go a bit further than that, and you dislocate your finger. The ball joint on the UCA cant articulate quite as far (to be in line with with the spindle like your finger can), so the max angle will obviously be less. Once that limiting angle is reached, you either deform the socket in the joint, or it just pops out.

    the guy in the thread, IRC didnt have ball joint seperation on the road, so thankfully he didnt crash and burn lol. They separated when he jacked it up I think.
     
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  11. Jul 10, 2022 at 8:00 PM
    #71
    BionicRandy

    BionicRandy New Member

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    I figured something else would limit it before that. Ugly!
     
  12. Jul 10, 2022 at 8:08 PM
    #72
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    yeah, these suspension threads and the tinkerer vids have been super educational for me too. I would have never known to think about it before. Now I understand why spacer lifts have the potential to cause serious damage, particularly as they get taller. The shock is responsible for restricting over extension of the UCA, and a spacer lift adds another inch of UCA droop for every inch of spacer height. And all of that extension is beyond the limit the UCA is supposed to have. Not a big deal if you never top out your suspension… but one big whoop in the trail taken at speed can end up breaking the whole wheel aand spindle off the truck!
     
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  13. Jul 10, 2022 at 8:10 PM
    #73
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    Good points guys, but I’m confident that the only time my UCA kissed the coil is when I jacked it up last weekend.

    The main problem I’m having is with the rear shocks bottoming out over curbs and/or rocks.

    I had a thought about temporarily removing the front spacers by simply loosening the top three nuts and dropping the coil assembly enough to remove the spacer. I just figured out that I can’t do this because I would have to reclock the top strut assembly about 45 degrees to line up the original mount studs with the shock tower holes. This would be impossible with the strut spring under pressure. Why do I want to do this? To see for myself if the 285’s will clear with no lift.

    I’ve scoured the internet and all the info seems to contradict each other. Kye? Stated that the lift doesn’t determine tire clearance and all the aftermarket suppliers say otherwise.

    82044871-3AD6-43FD-A250-9A8F5287A1C4.jpg
     
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  14. Jul 10, 2022 at 8:28 PM
    #74
    BionicRandy

    BionicRandy New Member

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    I maybe wrong, but I think you have to disconnect the LCA from the spindle to drop the strut enough to get the spacers out. At that point it’s just the lower shock bolt keeping you from getting it done. You said the dealer already did some trimming, so give it a go! 285s clear the body mount under full compression, so I think anywhere you might get rubs should be adjustable with a heat gun.
     
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  15. Jul 10, 2022 at 8:28 PM
    #75
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    it will be after the vehicle is realigned that you’ll truly be able to tell if the tire will clear. Caster will have the effect of pushing the wheee/tire forward a tiny bit, which is usually what you need to clear the body mounts. You could have some rubbing on the mudflaps though…again, hard to say until you have it realigned.

    you mentioned if you get a new suspension, that you dont want it to ride harsh. The dobs arent harsh, but they are very much firmer than stock. It’s a different vehicle because of them frankly, and I love it.

    But in Kye’s ironman video that you linked before, he mentioned that the fact the ironmans are not pressurized, they ride softer than pressurized shocks like my Dobs. Just mentioning it, because they might be up your alley. They also have good sales regularly.

    I dont mean to be a bad influence and spend your money, but it seems you’ll have to spend some money one way or another. Your rear shocks probably have internal damage. You’re also in for an alignment either way you go, and the potential loss of the 285s if they rub. So it’s seriously worth considering something like the ironman setup. They seem like a solid product, seem comfortable, and you actually off road.
     
  16. Jul 10, 2022 at 9:14 PM
    #76
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    Thank you, I totally agree with your perspective. If I can keep the budget under $2000, then it’s doable. I just don’t want to make another mistake.

    I’m actually quite interested in the Ironman Pro foam setup. The Bilstein 6112/5160 seems like a good choice too but as you stated, the Ironman might be a bit softer.

    The Ironman kit comes with rear springs but I think they provide 1” lift, also they may be stiffer than stock.

    When I’m off roading I usually only have one passenger and no weight in the back so I do not need stiffer springs.

    I have no plans or desire to add weight to the vehicle. My camping involves hotels. ;)

    Thanks again for your input, it’s been very helpful. :)
     
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  17. Jul 10, 2022 at 9:24 PM
    #77
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    Yes, I think your right. I watched the Wescott install video I posted last night and it looks like dropping the LCA is the way to go. I’ve watched countless videos in the last week and some ways people approach disassembly seems sketchy.

    I’m not interested in the Wescott setup but it seems solid and legit. I got the impression that all of their lifts were 3”. The only thing that concerned me was they didn’t describe the bolt torquing. Maybe they wanted to just keep the focus on their product.

    Even though my dealership sold me a Ready Lift and I’m not happy with it, I will say they did a good job with the installation and setup. Also they did do the front forward fender nip and tuck. I retained the front mud flaps and have not experienced any rubbing.
     
  18. Jul 10, 2022 at 11:42 PM
    #78
    Slopemaster

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  19. Jul 11, 2022 at 10:16 AM
    #79
    hossler1788

    hossler1788 Turtle

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    What rear shocks are you using?
     
  20. Jul 11, 2022 at 10:29 AM
    #80
    Slopemaster

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    Stock OEM. At full extension they measured 23.5”.

    The spec for the Bilstein 5100 is also only 23.5” fully extended.

    So if I replaced the rear stock shocks with 5100’s, I would have the same problem with the current rear lift of 2”.

    I do not understand how everyone is doing just fine with a 3/2 lift and Bilstein 5100’s.

    6DFCE2D5-79E7-4A77-9ABF-3B72CC16D464.jpg
     
  21. Jul 11, 2022 at 10:36 AM
    #81
    nimby

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    I believe Kai wholeheartedly on this issue.

    Look at it this way......the diameter of a 285 is 1" larger than a 265. This means the radius is 0.5" larger. I doubt you would have any up travel issues with a tire size increase of 0.5". I'd be willing to bet you have well over 0.5" of clearance between 265's and the fender liner above it on full compression. If by some chance you did rub up there, a 0.5" lift would put your 285's in the same spot as your 265's.

    The problem is the wheel scrub from side to side. Our fenders are too narrow to fit 285's in most situations. That's why so many do the fender liner mod and BMC's.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  22. Jul 11, 2022 at 11:00 AM
    #82
    Trail Runnah

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    According to the Tinkerer videos, by design, even at the same length as stock, the Bilsteins have a little more travel. It's because the original shocks are a twin tube design, while the Bills are a mono tube, which allows for a longer stroke. Besides that, what you do is you tell the company you're ordering the shocks from what your lift is, and they give you the appropriate shocks. I believe they come in different lengths, it's not one size fits all. I really think you're overthinking this, just figure out who you want to purchase from, and tell them what you're doing and they will send you the appropriate items. You're not the first person to lift a 4Runner.
     
  23. Jul 11, 2022 at 11:57 AM
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    kmeeg

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    I'm dying inside for not swapping my shocks this weekend as I was too carried away following the news in Sri Lanka, where I was born. If I did I could have measured the difference of Stock vs Bilstien5100. To my eyes Bilstien5100 had good flex. Will defenitly report when I get a chance, hopefully next week if I could get time.
     
  24. Jul 11, 2022 at 11:58 AM
    #84
    hossler1788

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    I'm not sure either, I emailed eibach about shock lengths before and rear fully extended is only 21.45". Which doesn't seem correct, but I have around 1.5" rear lift and I still have atleast 4" of down travel(I ran outta jack) but I measured 24" shock lenght.

    I think it all depends where your measuring from

    The only shock i found that has increased shock lenght(27" extended if I recall correctly) was dobinson extended travel rear shocks. But those you need longer springs.

    I also thought that rear 5100s were only good for 0-1" of lift?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
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  25. Jul 11, 2022 at 12:04 PM
    #85
    nimby

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    This is true with more than just shocks :rimshot:
     
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  26. Jul 11, 2022 at 12:05 PM
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    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    4” of down travel would be awesome. As I posted earlier, I currently have only 1-1/8” down travel.

    AD2863FD-6FEA-4E5F-9770-E1F9457ED186.jpg
     
  27. Jul 11, 2022 at 12:09 PM
    #87
    hossler1788

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    Anyone on here with rear 5100. Go jack up your rear and let us know the down travel you have.

    But I sugguest eibachs since they are reasonably priced, or dobinson

    Or maybe lowered your rear end to 1"(eibach rear coils) you'll still clear 285s just fine
     
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  28. Jul 11, 2022 at 12:31 PM
    #88
    Slopemaster

    Slopemaster [OP] Slope Survivalist

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    You mean like this? :annoyed:

    2E594C05-B176-4ABD-A4C6-4BFB86710B8C.jpg
     
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  29. Jul 11, 2022 at 12:41 PM
    #89
    BionicRandy

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    No sir. Lift is determined by the springs. Travel is determined by the shocks. These are the OME choices for the Bilstein rear kit:

    A042321A-F246-4C58-9710-1A3B0E5EE7CB.jpg
     
  30. Jul 11, 2022 at 12:46 PM
    #90
    BionicRandy

    BionicRandy New Member

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    I have rear 5100s and OME 898s. I will jack it up and measure everything in the next few days. I am putting lighter Eibach springs on the rear since fkn gas prices canceled my summer trip north to escape this miserable heat. You want to know how much down travel the 5100s have? I bet mine have next to none with the 898s. It should be better with the Eibachs. Will report back soon. Need another cool morning to get it done.
     
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