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Research: Sleeping, fold-flat-ability, hump, 2 vs 3 row?

Discussion in '5th Gen 4Runners (2010+)' started by Iron Chef, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. Feb 6, 2021 at 11:11 AM
    #1
    Iron Chef

    Iron Chef [OP] New Member

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    I'm looking to get a 4Runner. One of "features" I'm looking for is how easily I can plop down the rear seats and have a flush & flat sleeping surface in the back.

    That's one of the things I really like about the 4th gen SRS models - at least on the few I've tested (2-row models), I can lay flat easily in the back and stretch my legs almost all the way out (I'm 5'9"). No fuss, no extra padding, mattress, or "hack" needed

    When looking at 5th models, I'm running into some concerns in my research. Looks like 2-row models don't fold flat, and have this 2" hump/ramp, like shown in this video (2009 TRD off road) ?
    • Does this hump exist for all 2010+ models with 2 row seats?

    How about models with 3rd row? Can it all fold to a flush sleeping surface? (even though I will miss the extra cargo space).

    How does the entire sleeping length compared to the 4th gens?

    Thanks for any insight.
     
  2. Feb 6, 2021 at 1:14 PM
    #2
    Sixgunz

    Sixgunz New Member

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    I have 3rd row seating in mine. There is a slight angle created when the second row folds flat, but from what I have seen, I have more headroom because my 2nd row seat "bottom" does not lift up in a vertical position like on 4Runners without 3rd row. But, it looks like those have a flatter sleeping surface than I do and they don't have a large gap like I do when I slide my 2nd row all the way forward when folded flat.

    I've slept in mine several times - I just put towels in the gap and the angle doesn't bother me.
     
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  3. Feb 6, 2021 at 1:19 PM
    #3
    MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly

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    Assholes call travel "overlanding"
    You got your 3rd row answer.

    2 row models - all of them since 2010 - have the hump. Additionally, the rear seat bottoms nestle in the rear passenger footwells when folded up, which detracts slightly from available "flat" floor space.

    The solution is simply to remove the seat bottoms with 4 - 14mm bolts and build a 2.5" tall spacer to lift up the floor of the cargo area to make it flush with the folded forward seat backs. Very simple and inexpensive.

    There's a lot of images of such a thing on here. I have one.
     
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  4. Feb 6, 2021 at 1:22 PM
    #4
    Cowboy59

    Cowboy59 New Member

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    If you get the slide out tray then the back is flat. My wife and I have slept in our 4R with no issues with the slide out tray. We also took out one of the back seat bottoms and the headrest, which provided additional storage and gave me a few more inches of comfort when sleeping.
     
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  5. Feb 6, 2021 at 2:54 PM
    #5
    MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly

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    Assholes call travel "overlanding"
    Ah good call, forgot the slider option.
     
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  6. Feb 6, 2021 at 3:30 PM
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    ESCT4R

    ESCT4R New Member

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    Hey! I have a SR5P with 3rd row seating and what @Sixgunz said is correct! I use an air-mattress that fits perfectly and don't even feel the angle/hump. The air-mattress also came with an electric air pump that I easily connect to the rear volt socket to air up.
     
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  7. Feb 6, 2021 at 4:24 PM
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    Marcor

    Marcor New Member

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    What is the air mattress you found that fits perfectly if you don’t mind me asking??
     
  8. Feb 6, 2021 at 5:50 PM
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    ESCT4R

    ESCT4R New Member

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    ;)
    Limited-time deal: QDH SUV Air Mattress-Thickened Car Bed Back Seat Mattress-Portable Car Mattress for Vehicle Cushion Air Bed Inflatable Mattress with Air-Pump-Camping Blow Up Mattress for car (SUV air Mattress) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086R191NJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_dlT1_FPMGAQV9Y8CS6A3DJBTH

    Here you go, bro. I’ve had it for about 6 months and been great! My wife and I sleep comfortably on this when we go on a quick camping trip. I love how easy it is to just inflate and also deflate. I have a black bin in the back that I use to store it (along with other gear).

    somedays on my lunch break, I lay on it and take a nap. ;)
     
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  9. Feb 6, 2021 at 6:02 PM
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    EffinNewGuy

    EffinNewGuy New Member

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    2 row with sliding cargo tray is flat.
     
  10. Feb 6, 2021 at 7:22 PM
    #10
    DallasTRDPro

    DallasTRDPro New Member

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    A48886A8-8425-4C7E-8D56-2683A5012530.jpg I love my slide out tray. It was a necessity since I wanted to sleep in it. I just added a Dometic fridge and I can't wait to test it out when I head to CO or AZ in 3 weeks. Haven't decided where I want to go yet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
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  11. Feb 6, 2021 at 7:29 PM
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    Iron Chef

    Iron Chef [OP] New Member

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    Thank you all. The slide-out tray is a good work-around, as are other ideas. The hump is not not ideal, but at least it's not a deal-breaker.
     
  12. Feb 6, 2021 at 8:06 PM
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    Sixgunz

    Sixgunz New Member

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  13. Feb 8, 2021 at 9:38 AM
    #13
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

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    Has anyone measured the total length of the "sleeping area?" Even when considering removing the 2nd row seat bottoms, I look back there and think "no way..." Do you guys have to move your front seats forward completely to fit? I'm 6'2" (so 6'4" on the street I guess).
     
  14. Feb 8, 2021 at 9:42 AM
    #14
    Moon Landing

    Moon Landing AFFTC 1967/68 Eddies Air Patch

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    Was reading a post yesterday(different site?)and one of the guys gave this measurement. 6'10" on the passengers side. At 6'4", that was good to hear.

    Quoted:

    "Im 6'3" so I wanted as much leg room as possible...which means the seat bottoms need to be removed. Not a big deal, 4 bolts and they pop right out. This gives me a 6' platform that goes all the way to the back of the front seats (in their driving position), and with the passenger seat tilted and slid forward, I have 6'10" of leg room."
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  15. Feb 8, 2021 at 2:41 PM
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    Sixgunz

    Sixgunz New Member

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    I just measured mine - 3rd row seating with 2nd row slid all the way forward. I'm just shy of 6', so if I want to stretch out, it's diagonally.

    image2.jpg
     
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  16. Feb 8, 2021 at 8:58 PM
    #16
    MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly

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    Yeah, fully forward front seats with boxes on the rear floorboards to "extend" the sleeping area. My suggestion is 8 gallon Action Packers as they are a perfect fit. I measured it once and posted at someone's request but forget what the total length was. I'm 6' and sleep fine straight in.
     
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  17. Feb 8, 2021 at 9:23 PM
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    Iron Chef

    Iron Chef [OP] New Member

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    So I went and tested a 2013 SR5 (standard 2 row of seats), and with the rear seat folded flat, I can sleep fully extended, with my toes just barely touching the back door panel (I'm 5'9"). Seems I don't even need to remove the seat cushion. But I will need a hack to deal with the hump.
     
  18. Feb 9, 2021 at 11:00 AM
    #18
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

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    Thanks for the measurements. Hmm, good to know it's "do-able," I think, maybe.

    I keep considering this because it would be so easy to sleep in the truck on our adventures, especially when it's really cold outside. But since there are two of us, we need the entire rear area, as well as somewhere to put everything that's back there when we aren't sleeping... I guess we could slide the front seats forward, but I don't think we could lean them as I'm sure they'll be full of bags, gear, etc.
     
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  19. Feb 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM
    #19
    MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly

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    Assholes call travel "overlanding"
    Ung. I've resisted really committing to this thread or posting pics due to my overwhelming laziness, and the fact that all this info is posted elsewhere. But you have roped me in.

    I have had three 2-row 5th gen 4Runners since 2015. I built a pallet for the first one, in 2015, and have moved it to the newer ones with minor tweaks along the way. Pallet is made of maybe $40 in wood - top is 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood stacked on top of each other, base is 4 2"x2" strips laid out.

    [​IMG]

    The measurements to use to drop it exactly into the recess are: 2.5" high, 43.5" wide, and 38.5" deep.

    You need to remove the plastic fascia panel that covers the hump at an angle.

    Slide the front seats forward and set Rubbermaid 8-gal Action Packers in the footwells. These extend the flat surface by about 12". You don't have to set the seat backs up / forward, just slide the seats forward leaving the backs in position.

    [​IMG]

    Two people can sleep very comfortably in the back with this setup. My wife and I have probably 60 (non-consecutive) nights on a full air mattress in the back using the pallet and Rubbermaid combo. I have probably 60 more nights just on my own.

    [​IMG]

    Over the 6 years I've had the pallet I have adapted it a few times. I added D rings to the corners and edges, then realized that wasn't a really useful location for tying things down, so I moved them inward where they can better strap across the center of things like coolers, etc. I added rubber furniture bumpers to the front and back corners which squish against the back seat brackets and the hatch to keep the pallet from sliding around under hard acceleration or braking. I painted it black. The D-rings and the rear facing rubber bumpers are visible below:

    [​IMG]

    You may also want to consider a mod that allows you to open the hatch from the inside, lock and unlock the hatch and doors from the hatch panel, and control the rear window from the inside without having the ignition on. Supremely useful for camping.

    [​IMG]

    OK, specific to your concerns about moving stuff out of the cargo area overnight to be able to sleep in it: this was a concern of mine at first as well. With two people and a full size air mattress you do have to move everything out of the cargo area. However, if you pack smart and light, it's not a problem.

    For our shorter trips, we have a minimal amount of clothes and sundries that fit in one to two duffels; one 65 Q cooler; the two previously mentioned Rubbermaid Action Packers, one with dry food and the other (which lives in the truck all the time) with tools and equipment; and one larger Action Packer with cooking and cleaning gear. At night, the duffels go in the front seats. Any misc loose stuff also goes in the front seats. The large Action Packer with cooking supplies tucks mostly under the back of the 4Runner, outside. The 65 Q cooler also tucks mostly under the back. The 2 8-gal Action Packers go in the footwells. This is about a 3 minute process at night; super easy.

    Obviously bear / animal issues are a concern with leaving the cooking supplies and cooler outside. We always clean the cooking stuff before bed, and the cooler is a "bear-resistant" Grizzly which we've never had an issue with despite camping in a lot of bear country - most of the western US, Alaska, BC, etc.

    This is our older 40 Q Grizzly but same concept with the 65 Q:

    [​IMG]

    Here's Meredith in mid-setup:

    [​IMG]

    Other infrequently used / bulky stuff that might normally be carried inside the cargo area goes in the roof basket, so it doesn't have to get moved out of the cargo area every night - stuff like camp chairs, air compressor, traction boards, bulk water, gas, etc.

    [​IMG]

    In summary: After using this setup for a lot of trips, this is what both my wife and I prefer. Sleeping inside is secure, warm, comfortable. It's just... easy. You never get wet. You can let the engine run with the heater on as needed (pro tip, leave the heater on 'hot' and the blower on 'high', then you can just reach forward from your sleeping bag and turn on the engine and not have to fiddle with the heater controls at 2 am when you get chilly). Bears and serial killers have a harder time getting to you. You can set up pretty much anywhere - even a parking lot or similar if you absolutely have to. We've used ground tents and a RTT, and IMO this is superior to both of them.
     
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  20. Feb 10, 2021 at 2:25 PM
    #20
    peter2772000

    peter2772000 New Member

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    Wow MeefZah, quite a bit of thought went into your set-up. Sweet.

    Myself? At 5'6", I simply sleep in the glovebox.....
     
  21. Feb 11, 2021 at 11:00 AM
    #21
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

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    LOL. I appreciate it. Best part is that I had already searched the net and found some of your info elsewhere before you posted it. :) But I'm sure it will help others here, AND it gives me excuse to annoy you with more questions!

    Regarding the angled bit that sits where the 2nd row and hatch area meet, do you mind elaborating? Is this piece easy to re-install? I'd like to remove the sleeping "lift" when we aren't in-car-camping, and put everything back to normal to keep the interior looking tidy.

    Regarding the action packers, you know me... do they fit exactly? Or would you say that they are actually like an inch or two taller than the seat backs when folded down? Just trying to set my expectations right before I order... Also, do they fit well side-to-side and front-to-back, with a little wiggle room? Or are they kinda "shoved" in there, touching the seats? I suppose this would depend on how far forward the front seats are moved?

    I seriously think that my partner and I are going to try to camp in our 4Runner at the end of this month during our scouting trip in northern Colorado. According to the weather, it looks like it shouldn't be TOO bad at ~20* F, luckily. We are really only doing this, on this trip in particular at least, to save on a night of lodging. I figured I'd rather spend the money to build a platform, and further enjoy our 4Runner in the National Forest, rather than give upwards of $200 for a hotel or BnB. Since we will be near Fort Collins, it just might work out! Your help is very appreciated!

    Crap, I just checked and our "queen" air mattress is 56" wide. Guess we'll need another one of those for this... but at least it doesn't need to be insulated or anything fancy like our camping mattress.

    As far as all our gear, unlike you, I'm not really comfortable leaving anything outside, so I still need to figure that out. Of course, that would depend on where exactly we were located (thieves / bears). I'm also an odd fella and like to stay very clean, even when camping lol (most think I'm crazy, surely). I try to keep the interior of the 4Runner dirt free, except for the floor mats of course, so nothing goes on the ground then back in the truck without being cleaned off first. I *think* we would only be sleeping in the truck on short trips, when we don't need our huge cooler, so maybe it won't be as much of an issue. Other than the cooler, everything might fit up front.. except for our (big) camp chairs.. hmm.... I don't want UV rays on our water jugs so keeping them on the rack is out.. same goes for not wanting my tools and air compressor up there for dirt but again I think I can fit all of that in one of the action packers. But again, I don't think a lot of that will be with us when in-car camping. Options options.. lots to think about! I think a RTT would be awesome but an entire new roof rack and tent to the tune of $4000+ (from what I've seen) is simply not in the cards any time soon. Thanks again.
     
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  22. Feb 11, 2021 at 11:20 AM
    #22
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

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    After thinking about it, maybe I could just leave that bridge piece there that is between the 2nd row and the hatch area? I feel like I could come up with some sort of solution that works, since I don't plan on having the platform in the vehicle when my rear seats are upright. Does this sound like an issue to you off the top of your head? Thanks!
     
  23. Feb 11, 2021 at 11:57 AM
    #23
    MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly

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    Assholes call travel "overlanding"
    So I offer my experience not as some sort of end-all be-all camping pro, because I am actually pretty fucking far from that. I don't have a shit ton of overland gear and all the money I've spent on my truck has been hard earned and well thought out to have minimum investment and maximum use. I don't have faggy wheels or 'look at me' bro shit because they serve no purpose in reality. That attitude carries over to camping stuff. If I can use simple things and do something easily, I'm gonna. I only do what works on the cheap and the stuff I've been using has been neatly refined over the past decade of SUV camping, first in an Xterra and then in the 4Runners. I subscribe to a minimalist approach backed up with the knowledge that a Wal Mart is only just over the next hill if I forget something on a trip.

    To answer your questions:

    The fascia piece pops off easily. Its held in by 2 10mm (head size) bolts and two very weak pop tabs that unsnap easily. You could absolutely reinstall it every time, or build the platform a hair differently to accommodate it if you didn't want to remove it.

    I see no drawback to leaving the platform in all the time, but YMMV. I like having more tie downs back there, plus there are built in hidey holes for long objects under it. By leaving it in you don't need to store it anywhere. You can carpet it as some have done if the appearance of the raw wood is unpleasant to your eyes.

    Action Packers are as perfect a fit as anything you could buy. They are perfectly in line with the folded forward back seats. Obviously there is a gap where the console is / transmission hump, but this has never been an issue for us since you aren't really putting weight on that area, you just need the Action Packers for support for the very head end of the mattress and each person is sleeping on a side, not in the middle where the gap is. There's wiggle room all around but as you note, this is dependent on how far you slide up the front seats. A lot of places (Sportsman's Warehouse, for sure, just saw them in there this morning) carry the 8 gal APs so you could go buy one in person, drop it in the truck in the parking lot, and walk it right back in if you think it's no bueno.

    I understand being clean; I am neat myself, but you are camping. A certain reduction in expectations is in order.

    I personally would not be concerned with UV rays on gear carried on the roof on a trip. That seems like an unreasonable concern. See above sentence ^

    As far as weather exposure, yes, I don't leave things like an air compressor just sitting exposed on the roof; I put those items in a waterproof duffel which also has the benefit of keeping them all together and giving easy lash points. Chairs and a folding table have a dedicated spot in the front of the basket with a stand alone piece of tubing to keep them neatly contained; and they have never had an issue with getting waterlogged or rotting away from sun exposure - if they get wet, they dry super fast once open. For the stuff like air compressors I use an old yellow Wolfman duffel that has been around the country on motorcycling trips, and Rok Straps, also off my motorcycle. Sample pic, ignore the bicycles:

    [​IMG]

    To the RTT thought, I wanted one for a while. My wife also was on board as, after our last trip to Alaska, she was a little tired of moving everything back and forth and inflating the air mattress every night x 21 nights. So, I got a RTT.

    And... (this is where some members will lose their fucking minds)...

    It was a piece of shit. Not the tent we got, just the idea behind it. I mean... maybe a nice hard shell would be good, I don't know. But a soft shell, clam-style RTT is about the biggest PITA I can think of to have while camping. It's not the setup... it's the tear down. The part they don't advertise. Hate dirt? Well you better wear a Tyvex suit while folding up a RTT dirty from a off road trip. If it's raining, holy shit, enjoy having a dank tent for the next three weeks. Like condensation? How about trying to navigate a ladder to pee with no shoes on and the aluminum spikes tearing up your feet? Zero roof space for anything else? Reduced gas mileage? Reduced height clearance? Looks stupid as fuck? Inability to stealth camp in urban areas? Off the truck storage? Enjoy losing an entire corner of your garage. Cost? I could go on, suffice it to say I think a RTT is an option for people who aren't really vagabonds, have money to waste, might use it infrequently, and like the look it shows off to the world. It ain't for me.

    Obviously opinions vary.
     
  24. Feb 11, 2021 at 8:18 PM
    #24
    YetiMtnBkr

    YetiMtnBkr New Member

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    I love your minimalist view! As a soldier we would live with everything we carried in a ruck sack for extended periods of time. Can damn sure sleep in the 4Runner, or a small ground tent / poncho hooch on a beautiful night. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid!
     
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  25. Feb 12, 2021 at 10:14 AM
    #25
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

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    First, I thank you immensely for your effort and help! Your attention to detail is very appreciated over here.

    Those Action Packers look perfect, I think I'll go ahead and order a pair. I cannot think of a better solution for that issue, especially when considering that the Action Packers will double as storage!

    Yes, I am "special." Working on it. Anxiety is a bitch. I will say that I'm not TOO bad, though when camping and wheeling. We do roll the windows down on dirt roads, so it's not like it's staying squeaky clean in there.. but I.. try, lol. I'm a lot better when my truck isn't involved, in fact I do enjoy getting dirty when the activity lends itself to it, so I think it's more of a carry-over from my sports cars days where obviously I liked to keep my vehicle immaculate. Still adjusting to truck life...

    I think you are right regarding the UV rays. Really my only concern was our drinking water, but that was (ignorantly, I think) based off something I read at CDC.gov regarding not to keep "stored water" in direct sunlight. I need to learn more about the subject as now I'm seeing that UV rays can actually purify water to an extent, supposedly.

    As far as RTT's go.. yeah.. no personal experience over here. Your thoughts are definitely appreciated. I would only be interested in the hard-shell clam styles ones ($$$ from what I've seen), but yes, you've certainly made a great point about .. what if it's raining when you want to pack up and move out?? Definitely not a fan of the "cloth bag" style RTT's personally. I can only imagine how loud those must be while driving, and dirty, and yeah.. ugly lol.
     
  26. Feb 15, 2021 at 10:48 AM
    #26
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Member:
    #15907
    Messages:
    751
    Appalachia
    Vehicle:
    Midnight Venture
    Bigger A/T LT Tires, Slight Lift, Sliders, Rack, Lights, etc.
    Just wanted to quickly update this thread for those that (don't) care..
    After thinking hard about what to do for our solution, I bit the bullet and am purchasing and installing the factory sliding rear cargo tray option. Kicking myself for not getting this when we bought the truck.. (I had no idea that the truck wasn't flat without it), but what can ya do? Pay even more for it, and install it yourself, apparently lmao. :D
    For me, it came down to a removable solution, such as what MeefZah did, or something bolted in. Since we just don't have anywhere to store a removable platform (all this newly acquired 4Runner camping gear is already ruining our available "storage" situation lol), that option was out. Something permanent was in order..
    I really don't have a lot of small items that I want to store in the rear of the vehicle, so building an elaborate sleeping platform with storage underneath seemed unnecessary for our uses. I'm glad to see so many guys doing this though.. brings me back to my DIY audio days!
    So it was in between the simple $50 wood and carpet option - which I would find a way to bolt-in, complete with added tie down hoops - or the sliding deck for our 4Runner. I ended up splurging for the 10x more expensive deck for one main reason: a seat while camping and off-roading (deck extended all the way) - which after wanting for this a couple of times, I feel will be really nice. When we go wheeling for the day, we usually like to just pull over and eat lunch wherever is convenient. It will be nice to not have to deal with chairs, etc. We tried sitting in the hatch area once for this and it was surprisingly difficult, dirty, and uncomfortable. In the end, the added convenience of an "tailgate seat" won out for us, as well as the OE fit and finish, which I'm a sucker for. All that said, I'm stoked to see that there are so many options available.. they all have their use and surely work very well.
    Thanks again, @MeefZah
    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  27. Feb 15, 2021 at 10:55 AM
    #27
    Moon Landing

    Moon Landing AFFTC 1967/68 Eddies Air Patch

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2021
    Member:
    #19563
    Messages:
    920
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jer
    La Quinta, Ca. AKA "The Skillet"
    Vehicle:
    Moon Rock 4Runner
    Nam 68/69
    No idea if this will work or not but when the PRO gets here I'm going to ask my salesman if he has a future customer who flat out does not want the option, but wants the truck, to let them know I'll happily swap with them. Will it happen? We'll see.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  28. Feb 15, 2021 at 11:03 AM
    #28
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Member:
    #15907
    Messages:
    751
    Appalachia
    Vehicle:
    Midnight Venture
    Bigger A/T LT Tires, Slight Lift, Sliders, Rack, Lights, etc.
    Good luck sir! When searching the 'net last weekend, it seemed like tons of people had the platform that didn't want it... years back. Apparently mass opinions change, and now it's like everyone is looking for one lol. I think COVID brought back camping and getting outdoors to an extent, so there is a bit of a bubble there currently.
    Sadly, as easy as it would be for your dealer to swap the tray from another unsold vehicle to yours, I bet Toyota Corporate won't let them since the option is listed on the actual Monroney label, so I think the tray is associated with the VIN. :( Then again, I see Toyota dealers install lift kits and aftermarket wheels.. so why not? Maybe your dealership is reasonable and accommodating.. why shouldn't they be after-all!?
     
  29. Feb 15, 2021 at 11:14 AM
    #29
    Moon Landing

    Moon Landing AFFTC 1967/68 Eddies Air Patch

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2021
    Member:
    #19563
    Messages:
    920
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jer
    La Quinta, Ca. AKA "The Skillet"
    Vehicle:
    Moon Rock 4Runner
    Nam 68/69
    Because the option is on the sticker they're hamstrung, but, if a customer makes the purchase and wants to swap? It could work out?

    As to people being driven to camp. That's what got me here. Typically I ride a motorcycle all around this beautiful country. As long as it's above 10 degrees and the roads are clear I'm twisting the throttle......until COVID. Now, you couldn't pay me to stay in a motel room.

    Monarch Crest Colorado
    IMG_0040.jpg
     
  30. Feb 15, 2021 at 11:16 AM
    #30
    koukimonster

    koukimonster DYNO4

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Member:
    #15907
    Messages:
    751
    Appalachia
    Vehicle:
    Midnight Venture
    Bigger A/T LT Tires, Slight Lift, Sliders, Rack, Lights, etc.
    Agreed, I already didn't enjoy hotel stays pre-COVID.

    So I agree with you on the window sticker option thing.. but aren't the wheels and suspension also listed on the sticker (which some dealers replace)?
     

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