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Progress on E-Fuels: a real alternative to EVs

Discussion in 'General 4Runner Talk' started by Singleminded, Dec 20, 2022.

  1. Dec 27, 2022 at 9:02 AM
    #31
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    I regret starting this thread. It's amazing how people who rely on the fruits of science all day will reject other outputs of the very same process when it's expedient or makes them feel better. Every one of us who uses technology, who takes medicine, who does a thousand other things every day is embracing the truths produced by the scientific method. But when it comes to this particular output of the scientific method, heads go into the sand.

    We know we're producing lots of CO2 and that CO2 traps heat and changes weather patterns. Millions of people are suffering as we continually set records for global temperatures. We're having more devastating natural disasters -- wildfires, heatwaves, drought, sea level rise, and the northward spread of tropical diseases.

    And then we have this group of deniers. Many of the same people who deny recent historical realities they wish weren't true. Yet who rely on the outputs of science every single day, for everything else but this.

    Thank God that among people of influence and decision-making responsibility, the majority remains basically rational.
     
    auspilot, 7385, glwood54 and 2 others like this.
  2. Dec 27, 2022 at 9:28 AM
    #32
    ElectroBoy

    ElectroBoy Ad astra

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    The denying often goes into high gear when gasoline prices increase.
     
  3. Dec 27, 2022 at 9:39 AM
    #33
    Spare Parts

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  4. Dec 27, 2022 at 11:16 AM
    #34
    ReRunner

    ReRunner Fred Berry Enthusiast

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    Majority of people of influence and decision making responsibility are rational? Seriously, what the fuck are you smoking? If that were true there would be no hunger or war. We sure as hell wouldn't be using SLAVE LABOR(including CHILDREN) to strip mine lithium and cobalt so Johnny Dumbass can be smug about their new EV super polluter slavery machine. As far as science authorities, do they still hold sway over you after openly and obviously lying to the public these last few years? You even admit people are suffering. Though not one(unless they live in areas incapable of supporting human food needs) of them is suffering because of the weather. Its because an Daddy or Mommy Figure has convinced the easily swayed to support whatever cash grabbing plot they've concocted. The easiest way to make money is to take from others. The second easiest way is to cause suffering. Submission to authority is the biggest problem humans have. It keeps us from growth and allows the worst of us to amass their power and keep humanity stifled. Your original post about artificial hydrocarbons is a much better solution to environmental "problems" than battery power. It's plain to see. Yet there isn't enough support because China has the worlds "leaders" bought and paid for on cheap, electric crap. Which is causing more pollution than our current ICE engines produce from raw materials extraction to product end life.

    Having "more" devastating natural disasters? Um, no we're not. Climate changes wether we are here or not. Did you know the sahara used to be a forest? Maybe its was those damned Atlanteans and their CO2 emissions. Sea levels rising? Heard this back in the 70s. Weird that the fishing piers built in the 50s show no signs of this. Also, did you know that most food plants growth rate is exponentially increased by increasing CO2 and temperature? Seems global warming is a good thing. What is a problem is pollution and ground water contamination. But, thats not so sexy as "We're all going to die because your car is bad!"

    Lashing out at "deniers" shows you're part of a cult of easily manipulated lemmings. Science does not produce "truth." Science simply verifies reality, nothing more. Problem is, people can easily manipulate science, "historical realities", or play the semantics game to convince legions morons of things that aren't "true."
     
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  5. Dec 27, 2022 at 11:56 AM
    #35
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    This brings to mind some other people whose anger overwhelmed their critical thinking skills. They believed flimsy conspiracy theories pushed by individuals with selfish agendas, worked themselves in a lather and then acted foolishly. In many cases to the great harm of wholly innocent people. They are now in jail.

    Reality is complicated. Motivations are often impure. Skepticism is warranted. Solutions are hard, and sometimes the proposed cure is worse than the disease. So reasonable people often disagree about what’s best. But solutions can become impossible when basic facts are denied.
     
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  6. Dec 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM
    #36
    Gamma Ray

    Gamma Ray Be excellent to each other

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    Who cares? This never shows everything anyway.
    It's okay. One could say that in your pursuits, you were... single minded.

    I'll see myself out.
     
  7. Dec 27, 2022 at 12:31 PM
    #37
    ReRunner

    ReRunner Fred Berry Enthusiast

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    This brings to mind that you're proving my point. Thanks for ignoring that SLAVES are suffering for your political ideology. I don't vote, nor support any political party as I am not willing to be complicit in the horrors they commit. Nice try though. Reality is not complicated, civilization is needlessly so. Waxing poetic is just like sticking your head in sand. You're getting nowhere and ignoring whats right in front of you. So keep on, you're doing such good things! Basic facts can easily be disproven with other basic facts. It's a fact!
     
  8. Dec 27, 2022 at 12:49 PM
    #38
    Gamma Ray

    Gamma Ray Be excellent to each other

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    Who cares? This never shows everything anyway.
    Battery materials are hardly unique when it comes to SLAVES or labor that's exploited to levels close to it. It's super disingenuous to choose EVs as the hill to die on.

    You want to fight this injustice of your picking? Pick up a gun and fight like our forefathers did. (Assuming you're American.) Of course, you're probably going to get your head blown off, just like our forefathers did. (Assuming you're American.) You're not going to be finding very many people to join you. Society is too busy with their noses in their phones powered by batteries build from materials mined by SLAVES and assembled by FOXCONN CORPORATE SLAVES IN CHINA while they're eating food from farms that employ EXPLOITATIVELY PAID ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS in their houses that were made by ORGANIZED CRIME THAT LOOKS THE OTHER WAY WHEN THEY USE EXPLOITATIVELY PAID ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS THAT GET PAID SLAVE WAGES UNDER THE TABLE WHILE ALSO DODGING ALL TAXES WHICH SCREWS US ALL OVER.

    Really, the two choices these days are save the world with SLAVERY or don't save the world with SLAVERY. I'm not saying that's right at all, but there is a clear lesser of two evils there. Our very way of life depends on SLAVES. You're driving a 4Runner and commenting such comments on the internet because of the fruits of SLAVERY'S labor. We all are. We all look the other way. We're all kind of assholes. That's what we do as a modern society, and we're not good people for it. The only way to not be this kind of asshole is to live off the land in Montana or something and have zero modern conveniences.

    EV is not only not the hill to die on, it's so objectively illegitimate to die on that hill it's ridiculous.

    But riddle me this, if you do pick up a gun and fight, are you not using weaponry and ammunition that may be made from SLAVE LABOR?
     
    Singleminded[OP] likes this.
  9. Dec 27, 2022 at 2:59 PM
    #39
    Spare Parts

    Spare Parts New Member

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    So if we don’t vote, then how do we have ANY control of the people that direct the way we flow.
     
  10. Dec 27, 2022 at 4:59 PM
    #40
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    So back to my Yellowstone question. Couldnt we side-drill into Yellowstone for the geothermal energy? How boundless would that heat-energy be? Could we power the country by:
    1: using the heat energy to crack water for the hydrogen
    2. Onsite synthesizing of hydrogen into methane or whatever other hydrocarbon in order to avoid the problems of storing/transporting hydrogen.
    3. Use the spare carbon in our atmosphere to do it? (Carbon sequestering is an uncreative strategy to deal with excess carbon, so we might as well create with it).

    Couldnt we use that fuel to then power fuel cell vehicles?

    That would be zero emissions all the way through the cycle. Top to bottom. Even the water that is cracked returns to water at the tailpipe. And no batteries! Am I missing something here?

    Any geologists here? Would we run the risk of killing yellowstone, earthquakes, etc by large scale harvesting of Yellowstones heat?
     
  11. Dec 27, 2022 at 5:50 PM
    #41
    Gamma Ray

    Gamma Ray Be excellent to each other

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    Who cares? This never shows everything anyway.
    That is a good question. One I don't know the answer to. It could be one solution in a many-pronged solution such as wind farms, solar, and nuclear. Because, yeah, EVs being powered by electricity derived from burning coal kind of defeats the purpose. But still, it's important to take the steps in the right direction that you're able to take even if you can't make everything work immediately.

    One thing I can think of in my non-geologist mind is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed. However, you've also got to think about that original unchanged state because if your system depends on that original unchanged state then that's kind of important to you. Eventually you're going to use it up. A bucket of dinosaur goop, a hypercharged heating pad in Yellowstone. Of course, what is Yellowstone? Is it the 120VAC outlet? Or is it the power substation in your area? If it's the 120VAC outlet then that might be a very tenable thing. I don't know what makes Yellowstone so hot, but if it's a planet-size power substation, then it might be reasonable to expect it to be stable for a very, very, very long time.
     
  12. Dec 27, 2022 at 6:03 PM
    #42
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Some discussion of geothermal benefits and risks here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy

    Obv the main uses have been heating and electricity production. But where you can produce electricity from a practically infinite source like this, you can use that electricity for whatever — including hydrogen production. I think the main knock on hydrogen as a fuel for cars is the amount of polluting energy typically used to make it (eg natural gas). And also the issue of storage, both at fueling stations and in the car. You can use a hydrogen fuel cell in place of a traditional battery, but you still need to keep adding the hydrogen. At least this is what I’ve understood from what I’ve read.
     
  13. Dec 27, 2022 at 11:35 PM
    #43
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Yellowstone super volcano is supposed to be the next extinction level event. I’m pretty sure that magma goes alllll the way down. Maybe we need to tap it for energy to make buy us some time lol
     
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  14. Dec 27, 2022 at 11:43 PM
    #44
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    From what I understand, getting hydrogen from natural gas is cheaper than hydrolysis. What I’m proposing is using yellowstone for the energy to needed to get hydrogen from hydrolysis.

    Transporting and storing hydrogen is hard, so then you could get around that by using more of that geothermal energy to make methane (or whatever other simple hydrocarbon) by using carbon from the atmosphere. That takes energy…but we’re talking about a supervolcano here! The net result is that we have methane, that used excess carbon from the atmosphere, to make a fuel. I’m think you can make fuel cells that run off methane, but Im not sure. Either way, it’s a direct fuel that could be transported and stored easily. Just thinking out loud here…

    edit: I think this is what the original linked article is basically doing…making fuel from green energy sources.
     
  15. Dec 28, 2022 at 12:15 AM
    #45
    ElectroBoy

    ElectroBoy Ad astra

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    Imagine the public uproar if the hydrologic system under Yellowstone affected Old Faithful, or any of the other features in any way.
    7189D1AB-C61D-482B-A6F5-F32923FFAB33.jpg

    0F4CDFF2-F8D4-4A7F-BD0B-C9D148FBCE45.jpg

    8A2D136A-F8D4-4888-8B57-646BDC9ED212.jpg

    DC87EE69-E21F-4676-AAA1-4D098778DCA1.jpg
     
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  16. Dec 28, 2022 at 5:05 AM
    #46
    Spare Parts

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    Ahh come on, humans have never screwed up any amazing awesome natural things before. Right?o_O
     
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  17. Dec 28, 2022 at 7:10 AM
    #47
    Daddykool

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    Yeah, I believe that early settlers or some such folk actually piped water out of one or more of Yellowstone's hot springs. Apparently they caused one or more springs/geysers to stop 'producing' water. My take is that Yellowstone maybe ought not to be messed with. If you've ever been there, you can kind of get a sense of the balance going on under your feet. It's really an amazing place.
     
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  18. Dec 28, 2022 at 8:24 AM
    #48
    nimby

    nimby in the drink

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    There are quite a few geothermal plants already up and running in the US. Most of them being West of the Rockies because that's where most of the geothermal activity is.

    Just to give some scale, there are roughly 40 operating geothermal power plants in CA which provided about 6% of California's in-state electric generation. For comparison, 48% of California's electricity was generated by natural gas, 16% by photovoltaic solar panels, 7% by wind turbines, ect...

    I wonder how far we would get by focussing more resources into this energy source. Could we power a fleet of US vehicles? I'm not sure.
     
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  19. Dec 28, 2022 at 8:30 AM
    #49
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    I agree, but I believe it’s already been messed with. There is lots of drilling going on in the outskirts of the park to begin with, and if I recall correctly, including side drilling into the area as well.

    Yellowstone is a managed wilderness, not wholly pristine and untouched. The question would be how it would be impacted. And what we as a society want from yellowstone. And we have to keep in mind, the balance of the place can flip all by itself at any time, up to and including complete decimation by volcanic eruption. The geisers already fluctuate by themselves. Geologists would probably be best to comment on that though.
     
  20. Dec 28, 2022 at 10:43 AM
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    Daddykool

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    I haven't been there since 2012. I don't recall a lot of drilling then, but maybe it's increased a lot since then?
     
  21. Dec 28, 2022 at 11:18 AM
    #51
    ElectroBoy

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    “Yellowstone was set aside as the world’s first national park because of its hydrothermal wonders. The park contains more than 10,000 thermal features, including the world’s greatest concentration of geysers as well as hot springs, mudpots, and steam vents. Research on heat-resistant microbes in the park’s thermal areas has led to medical, forensic, and commercial uses. Oil, gas, and groundwater development near the park, and drilling in “Known Geothermal Resources Areas” identified by the US Geological Survey in Island Park, Idaho, and Corwin Springs, Montana, could alter the functioning of hydrothermal systems in the park. So in 1994, the National Park Service and State of Montana established a waterrights compact and controlled-groundwater area to protect those areas from development.

    From:
    https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/hydrothermal-systems.htm

    More interesting info:
    https://www.usgs.gov/volcanoes/yellowstone/questions-about-drilling-yellowstone
     
  22. Dec 28, 2022 at 2:02 PM
    #52
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    I was there around 2016 and didnt recall seeing anything either. It’s not necessarily near highly traveled entrances, and may have died down since the natural gas boom.
     
  23. Dec 28, 2022 at 2:03 PM
    #53
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Interesting! Thanks for those links.
     
  24. Mar 6, 2023 at 11:26 AM
    #54
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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