Needle bearing issue?

It’s the same for lifted 4Runners.

We installed the ECGS bushing on our non-lifted SR5 really as a preventative move as we had 305K miles on it at the time. No regrets doing so.

 

It is the same issue on the 4Runners and if the Needle Bearing does grenade, it is Catastrophic... the individual needles end up inside the differential and ruin gears, limited slips etc.
Good idea on the preventative

 

Other then removing the bearing. Is there a way to tell if pieces are in the diff?

My shits still under warranty.. I just wanted to do the ecg bushing and be done with it(granted if there's no pieces in the diff) but now I'm tempted to take it to the dealer get the new diff. Then ecg bushing.

 

You cant really tell other than by how much it moves around. If you don't have any grinding etc, it probably has not exploded. It does take a long time for them to grenade. The vibration just gets worse and worse. If it has not gotten to bad, just do the bushing when you can (in my opinion)

 

My 2022 with 17k mile on it, is on it's 3rd front diff. And awaiting a 4th as the third is now making the same noise. They tell me the problem is the diffs made between 06 and 15 are subject to this problem 16 to 17 are better but still not correct. I've insisted on a 2022 diff but will have to wait. I'm waiting.
If I was outside warranty I'd go with the wcbs bushing.

 

Is your truck lifted?

We have a 2014 SR5 with 320K miles on it and no needle bearing issues, but it's not lifted. The problem mainly arises when the truck is lifted, which imparts a side load on the needle bearing. ECGS bushing addresses this.

 

Just want to reiterate for clarity, many have a bearing noise completely stock and brand new. Mine was making the noise on my drive home from the dealer.

In my case, it was intermittent, so difficult to take in because it mostly didnt make the noise. I put a 2.5 inch lift in it after aroud 14,000 miles on the clock, and the frequncy or loudness did not change. It’s also important to note that cv angles at 2.5 inches are almost flat. Flatter it seems even compared to the stock setup, which has the hub side higher than the diff side. Considering the huge amount of slop in the needle bearing, new noise might come from the fact there is so much room in there, that the cv axle is going to be riding on a different part of the needle bearing.

 

I saw your later post, but was going to mention that you could still get it warrantied. I got mine done early in 2018, and it's still quiet. Probably ~65K miles since the new diff.

It has nothing to do with lift. There are plenty of people with issues at stock height.

Jeez! Sorry you're having such bad luck with yours.

 

The folks at ECGS will tell you otherwise.

 

They would be wrong, then.

If it is caused by lift, how come so many people have had the issue with unlifted 4runners?

Also, if it is caused by lift, why did I have the problem when my truck was stock? And, since I had my differential replaced and have driven about 65,000 miles lifted, why is my needle bearing still ok?

Just because somebody manufactures or installs quality aftermarket parts doesn't mean they know everything.


Edit: see @McSpazatron 's post, #188 on this thread for another example.

 

Tacomas when lifted the needle bushing goes instantly.. atleast my 2016 did

 

How much lift?

 

Not much like 1.5". On the forum (tacomaworld) it was discussed alot. How lifting causes needle bearing issues

I'm not sure if tacomas have the same issues have the 4runners. (Maybe there's a tsb for the tacomas as well)

 

That's weird. I know a lot of the TW folks have the ECGS bushing, so they definitely have issues. Maybe the stock CV angles are different so they react differently.

I just know that people have had the issue with stock 4Runners. It's certainly possible that a lift could accelerate the issue, though.

 

It's some of both on the Tacomas. There is a TSB that includes Tacomas of a certain year range. Some new, low mileage, completely stock Tacomas exhibit the issue.

But the largest number of Tacoma owners that have needle bearing issues are ones that are lifted. Either immediately after the lift or within 5k miles or so.

 

I could definitely see how a lift could accelerate or exacerbate the problem.

Last I remember, the TSB for the 4runner didn't extend to the last few years, even though it seems clear that the issue hasn't been fixed.

Does anyone know if the TSB has been updated to include the last few model years?

 

From my experience, stock height CAN have the issue for sure, lift it definitely exacerbates the problem ($2 dollar word ). I've done 30 plus ECGS bushings with 25% or so being on stock height. From my experience, It really is luck of the draw on stock height, once you lift, in my opinion, it is a matter of time with some being luckier than others. I've had people in with 50k miles on 2" lifts that are doing it preventively, and ive had people in with 3k miles on a 2" lift making noise and damage to the cage that holds the needles. I've also had stock height getting wear and making noise and stock height in doing it preventative. In my experience, It can also be tire weight etc because the more stress you put on the shaft that goes into the differential, The more likely you are to have a problem, Lift or no lift. Personally, hours made it 10,000 miles before making noise after a 2-in lift. Tacomas and 4Runners are almost identical in their front suspension and the differential is the same. Tacomas and 4Runners share the same strengths and weaknesses in this regard.

 

Thanks for the insight!

So, it seems that lift definitely makes it worse. But, it's not really the cause, as much as a contributing factor. The design of the bearing and/or the differential housing seems to be the main culprit.

I seem to have been an exception, since mine was bad stock, and now I'm lifted ~2.4" for so long with no issues.

 

Makes sense that tire/wheel weight (rolling mass at stopping, or start up in 4wd) would be more stressful than a lift.

I just lifted my ‘22 today (2” on front) with only 5,000 kms. Should I order the ECGS now and get them installed as soon as possible?

 

Some folks have installed it proactively. I haven't heard any complaints from those who have.

Or, you can just see what happens and deal with it as necessary.

 

Yes. Should have had it done at the same time. Order the gasket with it!!!

Exactly what I did. I installed the ecgs bushing when I lifted my Tacoma. No problems & that was in 2019. Will also install it at the same time when I lift my 4Runner

 

Anyone ever seen or know about an ECGS bearing fail?? Just curious. If so, it would be an interesting datapoint.

 

Bingo! A lift seems to tilt the scales into the realm of needing the bushing.

I wouldn't say "ASAP" but definitely be ready. When it is convenient, do it. It isn't going to make noise and explode in the same weekend. Just be ready for it and plan accordingly

Yes. Do the seal when you do the work... Already there and should remove it to do the swap.

The ECGS bushing is essentially an "engine bearing" (not exactly but close) I have not seen one wear out but and looking at the way they are constructed and with 25 years in the industry, If they were to fail, it would be gradual and the vibration would just end up getting worse. There are no components to fall apart and cause real damage. It would just end up gradually opening up the tolerance and getting more vibration. My big question, would be how to remove one of these if/when they do go bad, and how many miles would it take for that to happen. So far I've heard of 100,000 miles on an ECGS bushing without issue. But, It is an interesting topic. I think you could remove it with their tool and install another one for another 100k+ but I did not aware of anybody who is at that point.

 

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen photos of OEM vs ECGS, but from memory, it looked to me like there would be so much more friction (heat/dispersal) in the ECGS bearing. Clearly, friction is at the heart of the issue here?

(I’m really not knowledgeable enough to discuss engineering details, but it’s an interesting problem)

 

One of the reasons I havent installed my ECGS bushing is because of a conversation I had with one of the guys there. He mentioned that they are pretty much permanent.

However, when discussing installation he warned about driving in them too deep. He said, if that happens, it’s a huge pain in the ass because the diff has to come out and you need to split the cases to get it out. I was surprised by that and asked him why you couldnt just pull it out with the same bearing puller (maybe with the correctly sized backing plate to fit the thin metal casing of the bushing)…but he said no, it wouldn’t work. Thus my hesitation. My guess is that the steel shell would get deformed if pulled.

I’m sure I’m over thinking it…I just need my bearing to get louder more consistently to give me the motivation to finally install it.

 

Clearly there seems to be plenty enough slop in the oem bearing to allow it to be lubricated by the diff fluid. The ECGS bushing has to allow some amount of space for the CV axle to spin within it, so that would mean it also would be lubricated by the diff fluid. What that tolerance is, probably only ECGS knows. I can't imagine they designed this bushing to eventually, or within a reasonable amount of time, not be able to allow the CV axle to spin within it. As it 'wears', it would only allow more room for lubrication. IMHO

 

I’ve been wondering about this also. The ECGS bushing is pretty snug, seems like not much lubrication can sneak in there.
More friction and less MPGs?

 

I wouldn’t say friction is the problem with the stock needle bearing. It’s more that the axle shaft is too small for the ID of the needle bearing, and it doesnt touch or load onto all of the needles with the same force. I would imagine too few of the needles on the bottom if the bearing are doing all the work. Then, the fact that axle shaft is poorly located by the large clearances, allows it to float around in there and resonate/vibrate in certain condition. It only happens in 2wd because the axle is spinning unloaded in 2wd. It’s being driven by the wheel, not the engine.

Once it’s in 4wd, it goes quiet because the load from the drivetrain essentially helps hold it in place. Or at least the load from the engine acts to damp out the resonance.

Regarding the ECGS bushing, I’m not sure if it develops more heat than stock. Cant be any worse than the few bottom needles taking all the heat, maybe? When I got mine, it came with instructions to use a much heavier gear oil than what is recommended by toyota…which might be worth considering.

Actually, now I wonder if using a heavier gear oil would help quiet the stock needle bearing. Could this be the start of a gear oil viscosity war? Lol. But seriously, I wonder what gear oil viscosity is recommended in other markets. Maybe this needle bearing setup was initially intended for much thicker oil?

 

Has anyone seen if the ECGS bushing can be slid onto the CV axle while it is out of the truck?