Is slight steering wheel vibration normal with AT tires?

It sure would be nice if someone could figure out what the exact cause is. I don't understand why some people can't seem to get rid of it. I would be super frustrated if I couldn't get it fixed.

I wonder if it's somehow associated with the needle bearing issue.

 

Another theory is it may be some sort of overall vehicle weight balancing at certain speeds. Maybe a certain speed the the weight of the vehicle shifts backwards a little bit and causes the front wheels to flutter like you sometimes see on buggies in the grocery store...

 

Or maybe it's just the front end isn't rigid enough for the 265/70-17s and up. Has anyone with the issue tried smaller tires??

 

Mine did it with factory highway tires and two new sets of at tires. All 265 70 17 on the factory wheels

 

Finally decided to do the "upgrade" by transitioning from the stock 245/60R20's on my '19 Limited to 265/70R17 using the gray TRD SEMA wheels. Went with the C load BFG K02's. Decided to go with the dealer, they had a buy three get one free promo on the tires and with the wheels being OEM and wanting the TPMS swapped as well, I thought it would be most seamless.

When I picked up the truck I proceeded to take it on about a ~20 mile drive, focusing on the freeway to evaluate the balance and alignment. While on surface streets between 30-45, mostly on decel, noticed the truck had a slight up/down oscillation (not the steering wheel) but otherwise tracked straight and steering wheel had no oscillation/wobble at all. When entering the freeway and as I was accellarating I felt the steering oscillations start around 50 and they continued to build, to a concerning level, around 57 and seemed to get the worse around 62-65. Oscillations persisted for the remainder of the time on the freeway. Also while on the freeway I noticed a slight drift to the right, this was after driving on different freeways with different surfaces. After returning the surface streets the steering wheel settled down and drifting seemed to disappear. I called the dealer back to report my experience and scheduled a follow-up appt to get the balance and alignment "fixed".

The next morning, checked tire pressure and it was at 34.5 psi on all four tires. I inflated to 37 and oscillations at freeway speeds were still there thought they seemed somewhat less then with the lower pressure but the drifting to the right continued. Drove it with 37 psi for another day or so, then went up to 40 psi and again the oscillations appeared to be less but they were still there and that was unacceptable. I did start to notice the oscillations were consistently experienced with the tires were "cold" after sitting overnight in the all concrete parking garage and after sitting for 9-10 hours in the Hawaii sun in the office parking lot they seemed to be less and even at times completely disappear but then re-appear on the same drive. I detected no rubbing, even at full steering lock, in forward or reverse in either direction.

Fast forward to the follow-up appt. I was insistent both the balance and alignment were off and needed to be corrected. Advisor acknowledged. Received a call later in the day indicating everything checked out ok but they did make an adjustment to Camber and F Toe, I later found the updated alignment measurements were not on the receipt...will circle back to get the details for the file. While on the call the advisor indicated he wanted me to continue to "monitor" and started to feed me some BS about the tire size not being the recommend size, driving characteristics may be different...yadayadayada, even that with new tires sometimes it will take several months to smooth out, etc. I called BS on all of that. I insisted something was not right, he said he will talk with his manager and get back to me. Eventually picked up the vehicle, the advisor then advised that after having a different "trusted" tire tech re evaluate the balancing each tire did in fact require re-balancing, in most cases needed less weight then what was initially applied. Got in the truck and proceeded to do another 20 miles or so, mostly freeway, to evaluate. Bottom line, balance is spot on. The surface street vehicle oscillations are gone as is the freeway speed steering wheel oscillations...completely GONE. Drifting to the right appears better but I will continue to evaluate that. Upon backing into my stall in our garage last night had steering locked to the right and did hear some slight rubbing. Lighting was not good enough to see where that was occurring but will evaluate later today. I will also check the tire pressure when I go to the vehicle to see where it is currently set.

Here are the balance details:

 

The one night going home from work when mine was terrible I swear putting it in 4 wheel drive calmed it down a bit, I went from 2 hi to 4 hi a few times and swear there was a bit of a difference but not eliminated...unless I was just tired and delusional from working a 17 hour shift. This is why I wonder if anyone that did the ECGS bushing has shimmy.

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/KSc0rLcp4Dk?feature=share

One of my worst days

 

If that's the case, why is mine smooth as glass on 65# 295/70/17 MT's?

 

You turned out to be a lucky guy with your beefy set up I have seen on here previously! Dealer service advisors and managers are just trash these days. Blame everything else.

 

I think this is just a sign that you should put bigger tires on your 4Runner.

It's about time I had some good luck.

 

Those same tires make my steering wheel shimmy. Not always, but more than often enough to be really irritating. They're mounted on OEM TRD Pro wheels, so the wheels shouldn't be the problem. I switched back to my OEM wheel and tire set and the shimmy went away.

I've had three balancing attempts on the Pirelli / TRD set without solving the problem. The last balance was supposed to be Road Force but the shop said they spec'd out too good for Road Force to make any difference. They said they were so good their Road Force machine's computer would literally not even allow them to attempt a Road Force balance. I still don't know for sure that this is true, but it seems likely since a) they'd already bothered to spin each wheel on the Road Force machine and b) they would have charged me significantly more for going through with the Road Force balance.

Long story short, Road Force does not seem to be a solution in all cases. There's a design flaw in this vehicle, plain and simple. No vehicle should have tires this hard to balance without shimmy or vibration.

Yet I will try balancing once again, perhaps at yet another shop, when winter comes and I need to put aside my shitty OEM tires.

 

Are the shitty oem tires the Dunlop’s

 

No, prob even worse. They're the Bridgestone Dueler HTs. Worst tires in snow I've ever experienced. Braking performance is abominable. Worse than the summer tires I had on my WRX.

 

I don’t even get why Toyota would send a 4 runner out with highway tires...the Dunlop’s do totally suck though.

 

Tell them to turn off the auto balance and go to manual.

 

I really think "the" answer is a combination of weight on IFS and skinny tie rods, the vibrations associated with old Yota drivetrain tech, the suboptimal geometry for street driving, and the terrible aero... wheels and tires, brake pads calipers and rotors are also factors but are more within our realm of influence than the deeper mechanical bits.

The aero has an effect I can feel at all speeds above 45, where the front of the body doesn't quite quiver but is held in a chaotic, asymmetrical cone. During the worst of these "frontal vortices" (giggity!) the front suspension, steering and I think even the body mounts are in a state of constant squeak... rotating like Dolby Atmos around the vehicle, quiet but noticeable. This is the worst when driving on flat, smooth highways with either a parallel wind or still conditions. It's weird enough that I tend to be more fascinated and tickled with the disharmonics than I am bothered by them.

It's a weird, occasionally wrist-numbing for some, and I'm sure it causes a little extra wear on tires and such... but it's still not worth being too concerned over, as it's been a thing on Toyota BOFs for over a decade with no major problems associated with it that I'm aware of. Needle bearings cause their own vibrations of course, but those can be diagnosed and fixed relatively easily.

I do suspect that the aerodynamic effects at some speeds and in some conditions contribute to the vibes and wobbles.
The body seems pushed from all angles but rather than allowing the air to settle into a flow pattern, it's in flux. One second the downforce is radish, the next it's potato... and though this isn't enough of a change to rattle the cabin on it's own, it holds the various bushings, linkages, fasteners and contact points in a constant state of almost at rest... so all of those points get to squeakin' like a mouse in a trap, and vibrating a little bit too. Makes me think everything between the rubber and the driver's seat becomes a potential accomplice to this phenomenon.

 

Good post. Hadn’t considered the aerodynamics. My gut has been there’s something up front that just ain’t rigid enough. Perhaps it’s the tie rods you mention. I’ve wondered if people who bolt on bull bars or extra armor underneath have less of an issue. I kinda feel like welding another cross member somewhere up front might help. Anything that increases torsional rigidity. But after your post I’m thinking a temporary fix might be to install a giant cone on the front end, like a big nose, to better smooth airflow

EDIT: for me the ultimate fix is prob gonna be to just DD my BRZ/GR86 — when I finally get one! — and reserve the 4R for hauling people and stuff, for bad weather, and for any zombie outbreaks. And maybe just for a change of pace around town. I just ain’t gonna drive that thing at highway speeds unless I need it for one of the above reasons lol.

 

I should have said that I just removed my Artec skid plates, which use a large reinforcing brace on the OEM crossmember and another beefy (but not OEM beefy) add-on two feet behind that.

The frame was absolutely stiffened up by those skids and the reinforcements. I get a little more sway in the rear now, but less kick-out when accelerating out of a rough corner or a dusty intersection. I haven't been up to highway speeds since I took them off though, so I am curious to see if I experience more shimmy on the highway now.

 

If all this structural, ifs, wind flow bull shit was true, then we would never be able to balance them out because you would have to do it while the vehicle is moving. I have been running oversized tires for years, and sometimes I don’t get a good balance job. When that happens i take it back to the shop and ask them if they can get that shimmy out because it drives me nuts. Most of the time they get it right, once in awhile i have to take it back again, but they always get it out, and she rides smooth. Some tires are harder to balance than others no matter what size they are. I usually buy from the shop that i have been going to for all my work so it’s to his benefit to get it right, but it is almost always balance or bad tires, this is my opinion and i know a lot of folks want to find a mechanical problem but your wasting your time. Think wheels & tires.

 

I think you’re missing the point. Innumerable experiences documented on this forum show that the 4Runner is unusually sensitive to wheel balance. Many of us have had lots and lots of vehicles of various kinds and never encountered a problem to this extent. That’s just a fact. It’s indisputable. What we’re trying to figure out is why.

If we figure out why, we hope, we can identify a fix that does not involve trip after trip after trip to a shop for balance after balance after balance. It should go without saying that no one should have to do that. And thus there is a design flaw somewhere.

Worse, your solution isn’t even a real solution. Because many of us have tried multiple balances — and multiple tires — without resolving the problem.

 

I can’t tell if this is sarcasm, or if it’s poetry.

Seriously though, you sure put together words purty! They should put you in charge of writing romantic technical literature for engineering firms. It will get all the engineer nerd swooning haha. Freakin poet laureate over here…

The way you described it, I think perfectly captures the general “alive” feeling of the 4runner, in my eyes. I think it’s the reason I was instantly smitten by it when I first drove it. Just a general soft, rubbery, but damped jiggle to things…most of the time not consciously perceived. In my case it hasnt been obnoxious or uncontrolled. It just gives the feeling of it being alive and with you. Like a baby sitting on the lap of a hyperactive mother that is always fidgeting slightly, always moving or rocking even when calmly holding the baby. The baby relies on the feeling for comfort and for knowing she’s mama.

I’ve only had my steering shimmy on one maybe two occasions for no reason whatsoever. It went away within minutes, but I know the potential is there.

I’d hate to think it, but the reality of most problems is that multiple issues contribute to it. Get enough issues together in one place, and that becomes the dreaded “vehicle characteristic” phrase dealers throw around. Which is true to some degree, but we all know that some hyperactive mommas are more hyperactive than others. And some are just damn mean.

Expectations plays a part in all this too. If all you’ve driven are unibody cars that have less junctions that require controlling of motion, then you’re naturally going to be comparing to that. The 4runner is nice (and expensive enough if you get higher trims) to make you feel that it should meet very high expectations. But if you bought an sr5 or Off-Road model below MSRP, and come from a background of similar vehicles…well, you might think it’s the nicest little compact Unimog that lets you do 80mph in a pinch. I actively want to be happy with my Mini-mog, so Im pretty forgiving.

Back to your observations about aero. I used to be fascinated by engineering videos of airplane wing aerodynamics…where they put the strings all over the place to visualize airflow. Maybe I should do a test program on my 4runner. Tape strings all over it to get a good visualization of flow. The end goal however would be to put vortex generators all over the thing in order to tame chaotic airflow.

Because vortex generators are always the answer!

Or weight…I wonder if any of the heavier bumpered out rigs have shimmy?

 

Completely agree about the truck feeling alive and that being a big part of the appeal. I love how analog it is. How mechanical. I’ve raged elsewhere on the forum about the shame of numb steering and computerized everything — the experience that you are not operating a machine but rather a computer that in turn operates a machine. It’s almost like a video game.

That soulful and honest character is a huge part of what makes the 4R great. Such a character means some foibles. The astounding lack of such foibles in my last BMW is a big reason I ditched it.

But the 4R would be no less wonderful if it didn’t have this problem. It would only be more enjoyable to drive and to own.

 

Buy a lottery ticket.

 

Does the shimmy cause any real damage to the 4Runner long term (bearing, steering components, etc)? Or just an annoying feature and the truck is still bullet proof?

 

No, it's just your reminder you need to rebalance your tires.

 

If only it was that simple for some people’s cases...

 

This might be the dumbest question to ask, but is there any chance the shimmy could be in the steering wheel itself??

 

Said it here before, I never had a issue with shimmy with my 5x8 trailer on the back with or without load

 

It usually is, unfortunate for those with outlying situations.

 

The balance just isn’t solving it for me I wish It was...that was my first hopes at 5 miles.