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End of the gas engine?

Discussion in '5th Gen 4Runners (2010-2024)' started by YetiMtnBkr, May 22, 2023.

  1. May 22, 2023 at 11:12 AM
    #31
    semprenissart

    semprenissart Mèfi

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    I agree with what you say about there will always be people that want an ICE vehicle. (I’m one of them too, and I’m not saying either that I will never own an EV).

    However, Europe passed a law so no new ICE vehicles can be sold in 2035. There is an exception for manufacturers that produce less than 1000 vehicles per year (like Ferrari actually).

    so even if the demand is still there, it just won’t be possible in half of the world (add California to this too) in less than 15 years unless they change the law
     
  2. May 22, 2023 at 11:27 AM
    #32
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    European legislation might work out, who knows. They’re a group of countries that don’t have a need for the ranges you see in continent sized countries. They also have a developed rail network.

    Any EU countries that are too far from the geographic core might need to leave the EU if EVs don’t functionally work for them, or just live with it, or get a 30 year extension lol
     
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  3. May 22, 2023 at 11:33 AM
    #33
    Captain Spalding

    Captain Spalding . . .

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    I don’t know about unfairly generalizing. Maybe naively. I have rubbed shoulders with captains of industry on many occasions, and found them mostly to be more down-to-earth and with a more realistic and practical view of the world than most people.
     
    YetiMtnBkr[OP] likes this.
  4. May 22, 2023 at 11:36 AM
    #34
    mainerunr

    mainerunr New Member

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    Pepsi/Frito Lay has some of the Tesla rigs, I think I read that they limit them to 100 miles round trip when hauling soda and 300 miles when hauling chips.

    As for where EV energy comes from, no amount of solar and wind can make traditional power plants go away, a baseline is needed that can ramp up and down to fill the gap (storage is not reasonable on the scale it would be needed)...and apparently some traditional plants are swapping out closed loop turbines (which are more efficient and cause less pollution) for open loop turbines because they can ramp up and down better to fill the gap. The real solution for baseline is nuclear but if you have nuclear, you do not need solar or wind....

    As for me and EV vs ICE, my hangup is range and charging time (moreso cold weather charging time). The performance is there...which makes me wonder, why are all the EV manufacturers putting in massive power, why not make an econobox version with ~200hp and more range (seems the lower powered ones have smaller batteries...why is ~300 miles the target range?) I can easily drive 700 miles in a day with 10 minute stops for fuel, food and bathroom breaks, I don't want to add 2 hours to that trip.
     
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  5. May 22, 2023 at 11:37 AM
    #35
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Ah, but I suspect you are not a pleb, most likely a ninja. And those captains of industry do not simply happen upon chance meetings with ninjas. They probably have ninja-scheduling people to schedule conversational opportunities with ninjas ;):D
     
  6. May 22, 2023 at 11:41 AM
    #36
    anthonydotb

    anthonydotb ig: @phantom.rnr

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    I love the idea of being able to choose which type of engine I can purchase. I tried having a conversation with an acquaintance last year about this and it didn't go well. He drives a Bolt or Volt. Whichever the EV version is. Anyway I made the comment that EV's are great but they're a luxury and that they don't make any sense for most poor people. 1- They cost more than regular cars (The term ICE is offensive to me for some reason), and 2 - Most low income people will have no place to charge it meaning charging your Bolt or Leaf is going to take forever because all of the other poorsies will be waiting in line in the back of the Walmart parking lot. He continued to tell me about how they're really not that expensive. He then added that the low income home owners can install solar ($$$), and that apartments all over the city are installing chargers. He wrapped up telling me about how he qualified for 0% financing which makes it "affordable" and I just stopped talking to the guy because he's in a bubble and doesn't realize the poorsies don't live the way he does, nor do they have 800+ credit scores. That's pure #California right there. Great weather, retarded voters and policy makers. Anyway, what were we talking about again? :p

    With all of that being said, I know Porsche is working on some alternative synthetic fuel. I hope they're able to succeed because in 10-15 years I really want a 911 and not hearing the engine will kind of suck.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2023
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  7. May 22, 2023 at 11:44 AM
    #37
    broken-giver

    broken-giver BFD

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    Its possible right now with Tesla. The fast chargers they have are ridiculously fast. And I tend to take a little longer breaks than you perhaps, mainly because I typically travel with my wife and kid. The amount of time it takes us to use restroom, pick up snacks, whine about sugary beverages is ~20-30 mins, enough for tesla to charge enough.

    The problem of course, is all of this will change, I fear for the worse, when tesla has opened up its network to everyone later this year. I am already dreading the day when I have to wait for a non-tesla to charge up. Nothing against non tesla EVs but that was the main reason bought tesla for the wife, their charging network.
     
  8. May 22, 2023 at 11:47 AM
    #38
    Go Birds

    Go Birds New Member

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    No doubt.

    The fun part is, there's a guy on bulls***ers dot com relaying a story about how he told some 4Runner owner he was the CEO of Ferrari.
     
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  9. May 22, 2023 at 11:49 AM
    #39
    Captain Spalding

    Captain Spalding . . .

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    Haha. Your use of the term “poorsies” suggests that your EV-loving pal isn’t the only one living in a bubble. I agree with your views on California.
     
  10. May 22, 2023 at 11:50 AM
    #40
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    If legislators wish to improve energy use and reduce ecological impact, THIS is what laws should address. They should legislate weight and delta-v/acceleration limitations.

    Make it light and slow. That is what 90 percent of people want most of the time for daily trips. Make them cheap, so we can have a daily driver and a weekend family car
     
  11. May 22, 2023 at 11:55 AM
    #41
    Captain Spalding

    Captain Spalding . . .

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    I know you don’t mean that. I’m sure what you meant to say is “they should incentivize…”.

    (I seem to be contradicting you a lot today. I hope you don’t mind.)
     
  12. May 22, 2023 at 12:48 PM
    #42
    whippersnapper02

    whippersnapper02 New Member

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    Maybe that guy owned a Ferrari hat.
     
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  13. May 22, 2023 at 2:06 PM
    #43
    08TXRunner

    08TXRunner New Member

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    The ICE engine will never, ever go away. Overland freight, sea shipping, air freight, air travel, rail lines, and tons of other industrial sectors will never be able to use batteries. On the consumer side, one day I hope the tech is there to make it a feasible alternative choice if one so desires. But I can't see the overall infrastructure for the consumer side being remotely ready for decades. Just take one example, our nation's power grid, which can't even handle what we have now in times of excess electricity usage. What kind of investment is needed to support hundreds of thousands, millions, tens of millions, or more EV cars? We can't even handle what we have now.

    As I said, one day I hope it is a viable alternative for the masses. I just think that day is decades away.
     
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  14. May 22, 2023 at 2:18 PM
    #44
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    No problem my friend…and by legislate, I agree, legislating incentives is a more attractive way to put it.

    Legislation, even if in the form of incentives, is a funny thing. It can lead to all sorts of unintended consequences. Like, for example, EVs or hybrids built to have so much excess power as to nullify any ecological or economic advantages that are generally expected with electrification. Just because it’s an EV doesn’t mean that it takes any less energy to accelerate a given mass. That’s why I think reducing energy use should be the first principal when it comes to the goal of ecological/economic stewardship. Instead of getting a guilt trip about how much we drive, legislate the important aspects of energy use starting firstly with the basics of physics (not technology). If we hadn’t lost sight of basic physics, we wouldn't be driving around “small” cars that are as big as full size land-yacht cars from 50 years ago.

    There’s a place for legislation. We all live under rules like it or not. So when rules are drawn out, I prefer them to be based on a logical principle, then go from there. But maybe legislation like that is already out there? Do any of these decrees in europe and california take into account total energy consumption, like MPG accounts for with gasoline engines? Or is it all blind “yay EV!” cheerleading legislation/executive orders?

    I do think there’s a place to legislate/incentivize manufacturers strongly on total energy consumption in regard to electric. We run the risk of manufacturers focusing on absurd power hungry vehicles that just become “normal” to us after a few years.
     
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  15. May 22, 2023 at 3:28 PM
    #45
    Thatbassguy

    Thatbassguy New member? Really??

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    I have the same issue with range and charge time. I drive 1400 miles each way to visit Family in Florida every year, and have driven straight through several times. It's typically about a 20-21 hour trip if things go well. This would take forever if I had to stop for 30-40 minutes every few hours.
     
  16. May 22, 2023 at 3:49 PM
    #46
    anthonydotb

    anthonydotb ig: @phantom.rnr

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    Hahaha! My wife and I heard that term used in tv show a few years back and it's become something of a normal term between the two of us, and now you all know. And yes, I am indeed wrapped in a nice bubble, but I'm very aware of it unlike a lot of people we know. I came from nothing, and I'll never forget the grind. This guy was over there trying to tell me that non-home owners can charge, and I was thinking to myself "he's never lived in an apartment". ;)
     
  17. May 22, 2023 at 4:08 PM
    #47
    semprenissart

    semprenissart Mèfi

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    As of today Europe is definitely not ready to move to full EV.
    I grew up in France and often go back. The good thing is that distances are short so range doesn’t matter as much as in the US. However most people do not have a garage and have to use street parking. Unless there is a charging station for every single spots (which is nowhere near that currently) I don’t know how people will charge their car.
     
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  18. May 22, 2023 at 4:59 PM
    #48
    Tama1968

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    ....and he's really the CEO of Ferrari, right? ;)
     
  19. May 22, 2023 at 5:03 PM
    #49
    r32

    r32 New Member

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    Perhaps you talked with the ghost of Enzo.
     
  20. May 22, 2023 at 5:36 PM
    #50
    mac1usa

    mac1usa New Member

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    Self driving technology was all the rage prior to Covid and then then the larger push obviously as of late for EV. I think it will grow at a steady rate with all the legislation.

    I have a lot of friends who work for the Detroit three and was disappointed with this latest deal with Ford and the Chinese battery company (can’t remember it’s name and does not matter). Apparently about 1,400 Chinese workers will be coming to Michigan to train the Americans how to assemble these batteries for the Lightening F150. That is very disheartening. The all American F150 lost a lot of points in my book and many of my friends in this town as well

    I had no plans to purchase one but it always seemed like an American icon previously.
     
  21. May 22, 2023 at 5:39 PM
    #51
    r32

    r32 New Member

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    CATL
    https://www.catl.com/
     
  22. May 22, 2023 at 5:52 PM
    #52
    mac1usa

    mac1usa New Member

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  23. May 22, 2023 at 6:15 PM
    #53
    mainerunr

    mainerunr New Member

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    So, what is "enough" in 20 minutes? My stops were always wife and kids use the bathroom / grab food while I fill up (and that was about every 250-300 miles, while towing). One thing I miss about my F150 was the 36 gallon tank...700 mile DTE was great. *edit - no more wife and the kids are grown now so...everything has changed*
     
  24. May 22, 2023 at 6:35 PM
    #54
    5thToy

    5thToy New Member

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    I work in the unmanned vehicle sector. Current systems like Tesla's are at level 2 of 5 struggling reach level 3 autonomy. Progress along that pathway isn't going to be steady no matter what laws are written. People in my industry who were insisting we would already be at level 5 by now are admitting it's going to be a long time or it may never happen, let alone be affordable to integrate in to everyman's vehicle.
     
  25. May 22, 2023 at 7:44 PM
    #55
    broken-giver

    broken-giver BFD

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    it depends on where you start charging from. It depends on what level super charger you are on. Tesla itself claims 200 miles in 15 mins, and that’s close to reality.

    for all of my Teslas flaws, I must say I am pleasantly surprised with how frictionless charging it seems. Now our stops are always at a super charger, which usually has a mall or food places nearby. You get over 200 miles in 20 mins and you are off again.
     
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  26. May 22, 2023 at 7:48 PM
    #56
    broken-giver

    broken-giver BFD

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    I work in tech sector, couple of years for an autonomous vehicle company backed by a major OEM. I agree: Most companies in this area focus on certain aspects of autonomy, but are still not anywhere close to level 5. And btw I love how Tesla just went ahead and called it “FSD”. It’s gimmicky, but Tesla fanboys love it and would jump on anyone who questions it.
    I have seen it in action, didn’t care for it one bit. Comes with a bunch of caveats, which makes me nervous to give up the control. I am happy with lane keep assist and adaptive cruise in MY. For most people that is sufficient.
     
  27. May 22, 2023 at 7:56 PM
    #57
    Trail Runnah

    Trail Runnah New Member

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    I have a friend who's trying to be green to the point of using reusable cloth napkins in lieu of paper towels. I asked her if she's excited to get an EV or hybrid when her 2012-ish 3 series coupe finally needs replacing. "Hell no! I love my manual transmission. The last BMW to have a real stick was in 2019, and THAT'S what I'm getting when prices come down".
     
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  28. May 22, 2023 at 8:55 PM
    #58
    UncleShorty

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    Remember, there was a time when ICEs were derided and laughed at. Many of the same arguments against electrics, fuel cells and other emerging technologies were made about ICEs.

    Technology marches on and the cat is out of the bag. I doubt that there will be no ICEs produced in 15 years. But I wouldn't bet the ranch there will be any produced in 25 years.
     
  29. May 22, 2023 at 9:02 PM
    #59
    UncleShorty

    UncleShorty New Member

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    So if vehicles are completely self driving does that mean no more DUI?

    There is no driver, just passengers, right?

    If so, will Toyota offer the 2030 4Runner with extra large fridge, hot tub and built in bong options???
     
  30. May 22, 2023 at 9:44 PM
    #60
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Isn’t that a good thing that Ford is bringing those jobs here, presumably to Americans? This would be a reversal of what china already does to foreign companies…they want foreign companies to show them how they do it so they can make the foreign products themselves.
     
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