Audio Upgrade

My ears are my bench test. I drive my car everyday. And can say for a fact the dash speakers are tuned for highs, front doors for bass and rear doors and hatch for vocals. It was before I swapped my speakers, it is the same after I swapped my speakers.

And, tone controls will not add vocals or bass to speakers that do not get vocals and bass in the first place.

You have been posting in every audio thread looking for 'proof'. What is stopping you from taking delivery of your 4Runner and doing your own tests.

 

That's subjective and speculation.

No, one other thread. I found this thread that made the claim, so I raised the issue here. Perfectly normal. Glad you are here policing the forum.

Hasn't arrived yet.

 

Question: If someone did provide all this proof to you, would you accept and be satisfied? I'm betting you wouldn't and would try to find faults & flaws in the answer(s) you're give. You seem very combative and argumentative.

 

If done using a bench test, yes. I suppose a work around might be to wire a full-range speaker with an enclosure and known response to the dash location, put it outside the vehicle, and measure the response that way, but that would be second best. Ditto for the rear speakers. It wouldn't be too difficult, and I likely will use this approach to settle the matter once and for all.

No, I just see people making claims with no proof.

 

Subjective and speculation according to you. That is of little value .

Well someone has to point it out that your proof seeking is futile.

If it hasn't arrived and your repeated proof seeking posts have resulted in unsatisfactory results, logic dictates you not going to get an answer.

Let me put it to you, what you are looking is very low on the list of majority of 4runner owners and rightly so. No one buys a 4runner to test the frequency response of its head unit.
I ve heard the Burmester system in the new S class will tell you the frequency response right from the screen. Infact even of the speaker inside the fuel tank.

 

subjective /səb-jĕk′tĭv/
adjective

1. Dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world.
2. Based on a given person's experience, understanding, and feelings;

objective /əb-jĕk′tĭv/
adjective

1. Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.
   "objective reality."
2. Based on observable phenomena; empirical.

speculation /spĕk″yə-lā′shən/
noun

1. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.
2. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.

conjecture /kən-jĕk′chər/
noun

1. Opinion or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.

I'll get to the bottom of it using objective tests to get proof. So far there is none.

Thanks guys. Bye.

 

Do a search for "Skids Custom Audio" over at the T4R forum... his DSP (AC d6.1200) has an input RTA function which showed two different EQ profiles for the front vs the rear in the nonJBL HU. I never got a chance to test the signal of my JBL HU since it was the first thing I ripped out.

 

It’s all just bottom drawer Panasonic components.

 

That would not be enough. He needs unwavering proof with written documentation preferably notarized by the county clerks office that the eq curve is different for front and rear speakers.

 

EQ applied in head unit was plainly apparent to me when setting up my DSP.

The software (Audio Control) allowed one to route any channel from the input to any channel on the output. This meant you could A/B test the speakers in each position using the same signal.

Rear channels had significantly rolled off highs and lows. To the point where there is really no point using that signal.

Front channels have evident low end rolloff as volume increased. Sending a known full spectrum (white or pink noise) signal through and noting the curve on the analyzer as the volume was increased bore this out. You could watch the curve go from flat/level to tilted down and to the left as volume increased.

I didn't see a need to create and video a controlled lab experiment to confirm the information I collected. My goal was to get decent sound and not to convince anyone on the internet.

Shared my observations here for passive consideration/value to others. No mileage in my debating them. Clearly I'm a hypocrite as evidenced by my wasting time writing this post.

My observations are worth what you paid for them.

Jason

 

I appreciate them, especially your post last year with a picture of your AC d4.800 and the recommendation to supplement tuning by target curves with what our ears actually like . I was rocking an AC d5.1300 for a short while (which was great) but made a shift in DSP direction.

 

The best thing you can do for sound is replace the factory head unit. That's what I did, along with adding 2 amps and a subwoofer.

 

That's the conclusion I came to after spending a LOT of time experimenting.

Garbage in, garbage out. It's been true forever ;-0

Yet I foolishly thought I could work around it.

Jason

 

I swapped the dash tweeters with plug n play replacements. Much clearer mid and highs. $50 and took 30 mins to replace.

it’s good enough for me.

audio preference is HIGLY subjective. Without context, people’s sentiments are zero value.

my other audio preferences, to give you a feel for where I reside in the audio snob spectrum:

- AirPod pros are fairly decent. I value convenience more than absolute quality when on-the-go
- have a planar magnetic headphone + desktop amp for my office. Can perceive the difference over my lesser sennheiser and grado cans
- can tolerate kitchen music via Amazon Echo. Convenience wins

 

I can say this for sure: I went to the dealer today to listen, and the factory (non-JBL) sound system is horrible! Good Lord! Toyota managed to do the audio in my FJ Cruiser just fine, even with the Toyota speakers (about the same as the 4Runner up front) and the stock head end unit, which works great. What the heck were they thinking when they did this to the 4Runner? I'm not sure even a nice speaker upgrade could fix it. I really don't like the look of the Metra double-DIN head end unit install kit though, and I don't want one of the overseas options that seems to be basically a cell phone strapped to a piece of plastic that fits in place. I don't like the ones that stick out from the dash and block the heat/AC vents either. Beat-Sonic and Kicker have some correction options, but who knows what it's actually going to sound like. What a massive dissapointment.

 

There's a good example of the front/ rear response here.

My DSP has a bypass mode and with straight Bluetooth from a phone and no tune the car sounds significantly better than all my efforts to correct the factory output. It's like trying to make a beyond burger taste like vegetables again by adding even more processed crap.

Eventually I'll suck it up and replace the head unit.

 

Yes, it's the worst I have heard in a long time. I tried keeping the head unit, went through a few Metra DSP's and it was just so bad I gutted it all out and went with a Kenwood DMX, Alpine 6 channel and Alpine X/R speakers all around. As an audiophile myself i just couldn't make it work, and majority of head units just wouldn't do what my Kenwood DMX could do. It sticks out, but all the benefits totally outweigh the minor visual blocking of the vents.

Still surprised you stayed with the stock FJ, your system is only as good as your weakest component and stock just won't do it.

 

That Kenwood is phenomenal. I had an older model in another car, and just the inbuilt DAC and the signal quality it sent out was top notch.
I am big on audio and spend considerable time and money on home audio and the 4runner sound system is abysmal at best.

 

The later model stock HU in the FJ actually works fantastically well with proper speakers, and a number of other people did the same thing. I did run proper power and ground wires to the head end unit because it is to be treated as an amplifier since it is performing that function. That alone made a very significant improvement. I have 3.5" coax in the dash with a 320Hz crossover cap and an attenuation resistor and a 6x9 with no tweeter in the door. My personal preference is an overall response line that slopes gently down from the bottom end to the top end and that's exactly what I got. I had it undercoated and did some Dynamat here and there to control noise, and the undercoating helped a lot with road noise. The rear of the FJ is weird because all it has is a 3.5" location in the rear pillars. I force fit matching 3.5's in there and use them for a little rear fill and it all works fine. I look at the 4Runner and think it's screaming for a similar option back there. It's a remarkably accurate little system in the FJ, and despite building four new tube amplifiers for home use since then, I haven't ever felt any need to change the FJ.

Not sure what I'll do with the 4Runner at this point. My trip to the dealership was shocking to my ears. I can't identify the mix of what's bad and what's worse until I take delivery. There is no telling what I will actually receive. Different model years and different production runs of head units within a model year sometimes have variations. When it gets here, I'll attach a known-good bookshelf speaker to the front dash location, put it outside the truck, and run some test tones through it to see what's actually happening. Then I'll do it on a rear door as well. Crude, but close enough as a starting point.

Blocking the AC vents with an aftermarket head end unit is not a visual problem. In Florida it's a cooling problem and a definitite NO for me. The Metra double-DIN adapter is pretty ugly but it works I guess. Maybe painting it matte black or color-keyed to the exterior would be an improvement over its high gloss black finish.

Step 1 is to do some measurements and see if I can somehow fix what I find. Some frequency contouring is fine and can even be desireable. If turns out to be extreme maybe I'll have to go for one of the digital correction options or a double-DIN replacement head end unit.

Anybody got photos of the Metra double-DIN kit installed in a 2023-2024? Scosche makes one but they won't certify it for use above 2018.

 

Thanks for that link. Combining the two test threads linked earlier, we see this as the measured output directly taken from the factory head end unit. I can't explain why the results are so different unless it was a different model year and/or some setting wasn't set to flat and ASL disabled. I'm inclined to believe the measurements on the left more than the right, but I'll have to do some basic frequency response tests when mine arrives.



I actually can work with the graphs on the left. In the front, cross over from an in-dash 3.5 coax, with a resistor to attenuate them a little, crossed over to a door 6x9 with no tweeter at about 630 Hz, and leave a deliberate gap there to get rid of that hump (which I wonder may be an anomaly considering the graph on the right shows the exact opposite).

In the rear, use component speakers crossed at about 2.5k in combination with resistors to turn the tweeters down. If the measurements on the left are accurate then it's a manageable situation. It doesn't need to be perfect. It's a truck interior. It's never going to be a concert hall.

The guy who measured the graphs on the right said he measured no reduction in lower frequencies as he increased the volume, so if true that would be good.

Right. Using speakers and crossovers to handle the situation at least doesn't add another level of processing. It simply works with what is provided from the HU using simple physics.

The rear is begging for some sort of ear-level solution back there but I haven't seen one online anywhere. This applies regardless of whether using the stock head end unit or aftermarket. At least mount tweeters separately and relocate them up at least a little, like maybe the area above the tailgate lights. I also wonder about angling the 6.5" speaker back there upward so it's not blasting directly into the back of the back seat. A 2-2.5" driver, or a 3.5" coax if one can be crammed in, in the rear pillars with a perforation job might be an option. Anything at ear level in the back I think would be a plus. I have no problem doing a perforation job. They are almost invisible when done well.



Thanks for the links to the actual test results folks. That is exactly what I needed to get started.

Now I wait to see what actually arrives.

 

If I am replacing the head unit, I'd want something that fits in the original hole. Personally, I don't like this look, no matter how much the sound improves.

 

Lots of good head units out there that will do the job. But they wont come close to what the Kenwood DMX can do, but it's definitely not for everyone. The only thing more important than my 4Runner is my music.

 

At first, I wasn't thinking about upgrading my sound system because I didn't listen to it that much. But then I realized that the reason I don't listen to it more is because its sound leaves much to be desired.

When the weather is nice, I like to drive around with the truck open. And the sound system just doesn't have the power to deliver good sound under those conditions as you get distorted sound from having the volume so high.

 

So most people are saying you have to replace the factory head unit to get remarkably better sound. I have a place local to me that is an extremely high end auto customization shop and they are saying that they build the audio that then is a direct plug and play to an iPad or iPhone allowing you to keep the stock head unit. I will be getting more information on this but they really know their stuff and are not just your typical audio upgrade shop. Does anyone have experience with some equivalent?

 

Anything can be done, but there is always loss in sound quality when dealing with a stock head unit. You can add all kinds of fancy stuff, but it wont change the limitations of the stock head unit. I also went to a high end install shop and tried keeping the head unit which turned into a mess since they had to do extra to get it to work which really limited the audio quality.

 

@Thacrow ! Oh my goodness

 

because fuck ear drums that's why lol

 

Holly $hit, this is serious.

 

why couldnt they line up the tweeters in one nice row?!!