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So I finally drove a Tesla...

Discussion in 'General 4Runner Talk' started by Singleminded, Nov 20, 2021.

  1. Nov 22, 2021 at 4:56 PM
    #31
    Oldtoyotaguy

    Oldtoyotaguy Paid cash for it

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    I’m sure there were a lot of horse guys that decried the introduction of the motor vehicle at the turn of the 20th century. The conversation in this thread makes me think this is deja vue all over again. I can hear guys debating whether the steel coach bodies on the new fangled cars are as well made or beautiful as the wooden carriage bodies made by master carpenters. A fair amount of fear of change is evident here as well. I guess we all fear the unknown to some degree. With gas prices here in Canada, it takes me almost ~$85 CDN to fill up my 2018 4 Runner. That’s real money/after tax income that I could spend on other things or even save. I’ll always have an ICE vehicle, just for the visceral feel of all of those moving parts, the oil, grease and exhaust smell. It’s part of me. I own an old Jeep 2 door wrangler that I can take on trails, so my 4 Runner is my daily driver mostly. But being able to drive predetermined routes for free would be a real freedom worth considering. I’m open to it. I’ll probably flip my 4 Runner and cash in the insane used value it has while the going is good, once the new herd of electric vehicles emerges and the choices are better within the next 2 years. I hope there is still a group of guys willing to buy it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  2. Nov 22, 2021 at 6:58 PM
    #32
    2016Pro

    2016Pro Why all of the Pro hate?

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    The richest dipstick in the world
     
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  3. Nov 22, 2021 at 7:11 PM
    #33
    LandCruiser

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    Straighten your knob. It’s killing my OCD.
     
  4. Nov 22, 2021 at 7:28 PM
    #34
    lincmarkv

    lincmarkv New Member

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    I love my 4R.

    My Model 3 is a better car. My wife's S is even better.

    Our worst car (but most fun) is our Lotus.

    To each their own, and I think Elon's got some screws loose, but I sure am glad Tesla makes their cars.
     
  5. Nov 22, 2021 at 7:43 PM
    #35
    McSpazatron

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    I’ve heard it said somewhere, the last days of old technology are better than the first days of new technology. There’s a lot of truth in that I think, especially if you buy cars for the long term.
     
  6. Nov 23, 2021 at 8:14 AM
    #36
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Agreed. In principle, electric propulsion is so much better than ICE in so many ways, and at some point people are going to laugh about the old days when they used to power their cars with a smelly, flammable, carcinogenic liquid. I mean really, even now gasoline power seems pretty damn antiquated when you think about it. The complexity of the internal combustion engine is really quite amazing. And the logistics of extracting crude oil, transporting it to refineries and then refining it, then transporting it vast distances to hundreds of thousands of individual gas stations all over creation, storing it in tanks there (and then dispensing it with the aid of electricity BTW!) -- it's a remarkably complex and vulnerable system that we tend to take for granted simply because we're so used to it. Obviously, electric charging also comes with major logistical challenges involving how those electrons are produced, the capacity of the grid etc. But when you think about it, it's an inherently more elegant system. The ability to "fill up" at home is a major plus -- can't do that with gas. There are a hell of a lot more electric outlets around than gas pumps, because electric infrastructure reaches vastly more places. It's an inherently simpler distribution system. Further, there's some potential ability to charge off grid if an emergency interrupts distribution (as has often happened many times with gasoline, lest we forget). There's zero ability to produce gasoline in this manner. Not saying we're there yet on being able to charge EVs as quickly, conveniently and reliably, overall, as we can fuel ICE vehicles today. We most definitely aren't there yet. Just pointing out that when you compare the two systems you can see how antiquated gasoline is going to look in the future.

    Anyhooooo.... The point I was trying to make in my original post is that the problem with the Tesla isn't the fact that it's an EV. There is nothing inherent to electric propulsion that creates the issues that bug me the most about the Tesla. There's nothing inherent to electric propulsion that forces you to unlock your car door with your smartphone. Or requires an electric motor to activate before you can grab a door handle. Or requires you to navigate menus on a touchscreen to do what you used to be able to do with a simple knob you could manipulate by touch, without looking or hardly even thinking about it. Or that monitors every single thing you do in and with that car and sends that data back to a multibillionaire with a God complex. Or that is so susceptible to failures, hacking and other kinds of manipulation delivered via the internet. Alas, these sorts of things seem to have become de-rigueur with EVs, and are now migrating to ICE cars too. It's a damn shame. So I hold out hope for EV crate drivetrain solutions that can be retrofit into older vehicles like the 4R and still provide good range. That may come with the next generation of battery technology. And it may be the only way we'll be able to get the best of both worlds. In that scenario, the only thing I'd miss is the sound of internal combustion. That's a significant loss, but it pales in comparison to the benefits we'll ultimately get from EVs.
     
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  7. Nov 23, 2021 at 9:03 AM
    #37
    Daddykool

    Daddykool Photography enthusiast

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    You make valid points. I'm a foot-dragger who gets it. I work on equipment that uses lots of servos, AC frequency drives, etc., so I understand that electric motors on a vehicle open up a lot of capabilities that an ICE is simply incapable of performing. Having a 4Runner with a strong motor at EACH wheel, for example, would allow travel in ways and on terrains that are difficult to impossible today. You could reverse or halt the rotation of one or two wheels and make ridiculous turns. As for the fueling infrastructure, charging capabilities need to improve drastically before millions of vehicles are hooked up to our power grids. Trickle charging at home is one thing, but cross-country trips right now require stops of several hours at even the fastest charging stations. Not my problem to worry about, thankfully.

    For me, I'm increasingly tired of all the 'progress'. We're all being picked up and carried by a 'tech river' whether we like it or not. And all the changes and advancements that river brings are directed and controlled by precious few people with questionable (at best) motives. Like you, I don't want my car, or phone, or computer, or satellites, or social media, tracking my every move. I see my privacy being taken from me every single day by devices and the people who control them. Heck, we've arrived at a point where you can live in your house without ever having to leave it, if you plan it out properly. Who needs a vehicle then?

    The ICE represents a last hold-out of sorts to things mechanical. I like mechanical. I've made my living fixing machines for 43 years. So I drag my feet a bit. And because of what they represent (in some ways), Tesla and the EV thing in general have very little appeal to me.
     
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  8. Nov 23, 2021 at 10:01 AM
    #38
    ElectroBoy

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    Porsche developed an 800-volt charging system for the Taycan and claim the battery pack can be charged from 5% to 80% in 23 minutes in ideal situations, using a DC fast charger with 270 kW of power. So fast charging is possible and the technology will improve in time.
     
  9. Nov 23, 2021 at 10:07 AM
    #39
    Roland

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    Ferdinand Porsche, the father of Electric & Hybrid vehicles (1898) - And most thinking Electric & Hybrid is a new technology, as old as tales.

    On June 26th, 1898, Porsche had engraved the code "P1" (standing for Porsche, number one, signifying Ferdinand Porsche's first design) onto all the key components; car driven by two electric motors within the front wheel hubs, powered by batteries. This drivetrain construction was easily expanded to four-wheel drive, by mounting two more electric motors to the rear wheels, and a four-motor example was ordered by Englishman E. W. Hart in 1900. In the beginning of the 1900's trucks, buses and fire-engines were produced, as well four-wheel drive buses.

    Porsche introduced the "Lohner-Porsche Mixte Hybrid" in 1901: instead of a massive battery-pack, a smaller battery-pack an internal combustion engine was added. The Hybrid was born.

    Porshe Hybrid.jpg
     
  10. Nov 23, 2021 at 10:08 AM
    #40
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    And others such as Lucid are showing similar or even better charging times. Not super reliable yet, but no reason it won't be after the normal period of teething pain. Plus, Lucid is showing 500-plus mile ranges in real world testing. Not vapor-ware hype BS. Independently verified. And all this is before the next generation of batteries, be that solid state or whatever. I think it's an easy bet that we'll be seeing more range and faster charging times out of smaller battery packs within the next few years. Hopefully by then the charging infrastructure will be much better. At that point it's gonna be hard for a lot of people to compare gas and electric and decide that gas better meets their needs and wants. EV already makes sense for a good portion of the population now (eg can charge at home, rarely drives long distances -- and has an ICE vehicle for when they have to).
     
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  11. Nov 23, 2021 at 10:39 AM
    #41
    Spare Parts

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    Rav4 Prime, plug in electric and hybrid. A generation of these plug in hybrids will bridge the gap well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021 at 10:45 AM
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  12. Nov 23, 2021 at 10:53 AM
    #42
    ElectroBoy

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    As will a Gen 6 4Runner hybrid.
     
  13. Nov 23, 2021 at 10:57 AM
    #43
    ElectroBoy

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    In California we’re already seeing $5+/gallon prices in a lot of places. EVs are going to make a lot more sense to some people. Especially those with home solar installations.
     
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  14. Nov 23, 2021 at 11:35 AM
    #44
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Indeed. Solar obv has signif limitations (sun needs to be shining, relatively inefficient at converting sunlight into electric, etc) but it's such an amazing tool to add to a package of other measures. It's bringing electricity to homes in the third world that have never had it before -- raising living standards with virtually no ongoing costs and no need for infrastructure. It's ability to at least help give us power when we can't get it from the grid is huge. I hope to have a home before long that has solar, a battery system for storage and/or something like the F150 Lightning. That thing has only ok range, yet can power a typical home for days if the grid goes down. Who doesn't value that kind of self sufficiency?

    I think it's remarkable too that we've had all this discussion about the advantages of electric yet haven't once mentioned the environment. This to me proves a very important point -- shifts like the one from ICE to EV need to make market sense, not just environmental sense. The goal should be for people to want to go electric for the daily benefits it provides them -- not be forced to compromise. If policymakers plan well and the technology continues to improve as expected, then we get both -- better daily solutions for people in terms of cost and convenience and safety, and less harm to the environment. It really can be a win-win.
     
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  15. Nov 23, 2021 at 11:57 AM
    #45
    Roland

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    Evolution is staggering in this industry. There were many successful attempts made to replace graphite with silicon in lithium-ion batteries until scientists solved the issue with a nanocomposite of silicon and other materials. There are other problems like (environmental consequences of using lithium, its high cost, and less availability) that some nanomaterials scientists are working on. This is what they call, “Beyond lithium-ion” batteries and various ways are being explored to replace lithium with materials like sodium, potassium, magnesium, and aluminum.
     
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  16. Nov 23, 2021 at 12:10 PM
    #46
    ElectroBoy

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    I sure hope progress is made with battery reliability in general. I’ve had so many ruined flashlights from leaking alkaline AA cells. Duracell seems to be the worst.
     
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  17. Nov 23, 2021 at 12:52 PM
    #47
    Oldtoyotaguy

    Oldtoyotaguy Paid cash for it

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    100% @Singleminded !
     
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  18. Nov 23, 2021 at 12:55 PM
    #48
    Oldtoyotaguy

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    I'd love to able to come back in 100 years and see just how far this has gone. There aren't many really old guys around anymore, but if they were still with us, I can't hear any of them saying, I'd love to return to Model T!
     
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  19. Nov 23, 2021 at 1:00 PM
    #49
    Spare Parts

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    But I don’t think it’s going to be the plug in hybrid, like the Prius Prime and Rav4 Prime.

    And I’ll wait to see what the power plant they use in the hybrid runner. The rav4 took the same engine setup that’s in the bigger Highlander.
     
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  20. Nov 23, 2021 at 3:07 PM
    #50
    Daddykool

    Daddykool Photography enthusiast

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    I'll be interested to see what political forces prevail once the tipping point to EV has passed. And mind you, political forces ARE planning to be in control. There are controls that can be implemented on electric-dependent transportation modes that can't currently be implemented on physical-fuel ones. Food for thought, eh?
     
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  21. Nov 23, 2021 at 4:35 PM
    #51
    Singleminded

    Singleminded [OP] New Member

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    Well, let's think this through. The very real danger we face arises from the connectedness of systems. This is what I've been railing about on the thread about disconnecting Toyota's Connected Services. When your car's computer is connected to the internet, there's an immense ability for either corporations or hackers or governments / law enforcement to not only track your location and behavior, and not only eavesdrop on you, but to control the vehicle itself. The more possessions we have that are connected to the internet, the more risk there is. And to your point (I think), public policy concerns, no matter how legitimate in principle, become reasons (in good faith or not) to engage in even further monitoring and to exert even further control over people's behavior.

    Think drunk driving is a threat to public safety? Then why not prevent cars from starting if the computer smells alcohol? (This of course is actually happening in one form or another per the recent bipartisan infrastructure bill).

    Think speeding is a threat to public safety? Then why not monitor everyone's speed and either cap the throttle or mail them a ticket if they go too fast?

    Think someone might be up to no good, or simply in danger, if they're driving through a high crime area at night? Then why not turn on the cameras and record everything happening inside and outside of the car?

    It goes on and on -- there are a hundred examples like this.

    But none of this is inherent to electric propulsion. It's inherent to computerized data collection that can be transmitted remotely, and to computerized control of functions that can be manipulated remotely -- i.e via the internet. If these systems aren't connected then there really isn't a problem.

    If you haven't seen the 2002 film Minority Report, I highly recommend it. The film is absolutely prescient about the degree of control and monitoring enabled by technology (the clairvoyant humanoid creatures in the bathtub not so much lol). Here's law enforcement remotely controlling our hero's car, thwarting his escape from the frame job that's been done on him. Here, law enforcement uses swarms of semi-intelligent drones to invade the privacy of, and inflict pain upon, that part of the society that's been left behind -- all in the seemingly righteous cause of capturing a supposedly dangerous but actually innocent fugitive. This sort of thing is already happening and can only get worse unless we decide as a society that we want a legal structure that better protects civil liberties. I'm not optimistic, but it is the kind of decision we can in fact make in a democracy if enough of us want it.
     
  22. Nov 23, 2021 at 5:33 PM
    #52
    Roland

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    There are countless different ways in which someone can secretly spy or eavesdrop on you.

    During divorce or separation, your ex-partner knows more details than they should about your activities, finances, or other details.

    Vacuuming data out of cars is that so many drivers are oblivious to the fact that their cars are generating so much data in the first place, often including extremely sensitive information inadvertently synced from smartphones.

    Our personal information quietly stored in the infotainment consoles and various other computers used by modern vehicles, hence, it’s a tapestry of personal details akin that this data can include recent destinations, favorite locations, call logs, contact lists, SMS messages, emails, pictures, videos, social media feeds, and the navigation history of everywhere the vehicle has been.

    As if that’s not enough, the system is also capable of pulling really detailed items, like when and where you turned on your headlamps or opened/closed a door. There are also data logs for vehicle speed, gear selection, steering inputs, ignition cycles, and more, all is linked to your positional data and the time. Manufacturers have been cagey about just how much information modern vehicles take in and share but the answer appears to be, literally as much as they can engineer into them.

    There is a chip shortage, now we have to pay more for a vehicle. Lol :D
     
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  23. Nov 23, 2021 at 6:42 PM
    #53
    LandCruiser

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    Duracell just bought me a $600 speedlite.
     
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  24. Nov 24, 2021 at 1:04 AM
    #54
    Daddykool

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    Funny - they bought me a $100 flash maybe 25 years ago.
     
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  25. Nov 24, 2021 at 4:33 AM
    #55
    Spare Parts

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    I just posted this in another thread, but it fits the recent conversation here as well, watch The social dilemma on Netflix.
     
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  26. Nov 24, 2021 at 5:51 AM
    #56
    GrantA

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    There is no argument that we can do better than ICE. The unfortunate thing is support via capital is needed to push for this change. While I would love to get rid of my ICE in favor of something more environmentally friendly. I do not agree with the direction everything is headed. Making it mandatory for vehicles made after 2026 or whatever to require testing for blood alcohol content. Most people are not drinkers and making it mandatory is dumb. But just something else that people who do not drink have to pay for.

    Anyways I agree about not supporting all the connected services offerings. I just want a car that I can turn on and is reliable without more junk to possibly break.

    Battery technology is not where it needs to be and people who think it is more environmentally friendly is living with their heads in a cloud. To manufacture a battery it creates a lot of ozone and my argument is thinking about all the ozone to get the materials needed to make the batteries, how the battery manufacturing creates more ozone than a ICE running 125k miles (obviously depends on the ICE. Probably 60k for a 4Runner).

    Anyways when the batteries depreciate over time and the more you travel. This reduces the distance your able to travel and more importantly the replacement battery can cost more than the cars value. So what will happen next? Not many people want a car with a blown motor. How many will want a car that requires a $16k battery as found in the Tesla?

    So until we can move to a more reliable system I will rely on my ICE until the reliability changes. Just my 2 cents.

    EDIT:
    Links for reference:
    real Tesla battery costs: https://www.currentautomotive.com/how-much-does-a-tesla-model-3-battery-replacement-cost/

    Battery manufacturing and the environment:
    New York Times supports this batteries and you can see here they talk the truth about the impact:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html

    what should be a short trip turns into how many hours with a Tesla???
    https://youtu.be/ckib1ABJ_sM

    I am not saying that ICE doesn’t have a bad impact. Think about the impact they have on the ocean and the spillage. A lot of impact comes from ICE as well. I just think all around we can do better than ICE and battery.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021 at 6:18 AM
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  27. Nov 24, 2021 at 10:18 AM
    #57
    ElectroBoy

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    Everything humans do creates pollution. There is no clean industry. Just gotta make trade offs and try to reduce our damage as much as possible.
     
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  28. Nov 24, 2021 at 10:29 AM
    #58
    LandCruiser

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    I just really wanna know why people think we can “do better” than internal combustion?

    Fuel is plentiful and it seems like the only hindrance to obtaining it is government regulation.

    The technology is established, safe, and reliable and once again the only limits on it are intrusive government regulation.

    We operate based on emissions standards put forth by California because LA is prone to pollution based on its geographic location, but most of the world isn’t like this.

    Also one volcano or wildfire season puts out more pollution than all the cars in California in one year.

    Plus, the electricity for electric vehicles has to come from somewhere, and even green California can’t keep the lights on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021 at 10:43 AM
  29. Nov 24, 2021 at 11:06 AM
    #59
    ElectroBoy

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  30. Nov 27, 2021 at 4:17 PM
    #60
    The last breed

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    I will buy a 4Runner someday
    :D
     
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