Bad needle bearing sound like bad wheel bearings?

I have a drivetrain noise above 40 mph that has been getting worse.

I thought it was front wheel bearing(s), but I have it jacked up and neither front wheel has any play in it, nor any significant noise when I spin them. Even using a mechanic stethoscope it's not particularly loud.

I few weeks ago I had tried the needle bearing diagnostic of putting it in 4wd and took it up to 50-55 mph and the noise did not change.

I also don't notice any change in the noise on acceleration or deceleration. I had bad u-joints in an old Chevy pickup, the vibration was terrible on deceleration.

I do have some steering wheel shake, it comes and goes, seemingly depending on road surface. I figured it was either a tire or a balancing issue, when I get the bearing noise situation sorted I'm planning on getting new tires.

Anyone have any thoughts of what it might be if it's not front wheel bearings? Is it possible a needle bearing is bad enough that it makes noise either way?

FYI, 2013 with 198k miles.

Thanks!

 

I’ve read that sometimes bearings can go out and start making noise before you can feel them turning the wheel by hand.

I would rule out the needle bearing if there is no change in sound/feel when shifted to 4wd. However, I would repeat this test several times at 30-to 45 mph range to verify. Find some nice smooth asphalt when you check. The change in sound/feel is pretty noticeable if it’s the needle bearing.

Any chance that the bearing sound is chop from feathered treads on the tires?

These kind of issues suck. Sometimes I think it’s better to forget about it until it the source of the problem becomes obvious.

 

Not likely the needle bearing if it doesn't go away in 4WD.

Could be rear wheel bearing or brake pad or parking brake shoe dragging. Spin each rear wheel by hand and see if one wheel is louder than the other, then dig further.

Could also be U-joints. With 4-link suspension there's much less axle wrap and less change in pinion angle on accel/decel, so you get noise well before any vibration develops. Check U-joints for slop by hand. You may have to unbolt the driveshaft from the rear diff to check if the U-joints move freely. The U-joint closest to the rear diff tends to die first, because it's the closest to water and mud.

 

Thank you, that's great info about the u-joints. I kind of ruled out u-joints based on my experience, but what you said makes sense.

I realized I said "noise" on my original post, it's less a noise and more of a low growl that I can feel through the gas pedal and through my left foot as it sits flat on the floor.

 

I would grab the driver axle by the square section and shake it and/or try to move it. If there is considerable play at that point then yes I would think the needle bearing is out of place or something isn't set right. Check for
seepage in that area.

Other areas:

• Maybe the steering rack is doing something funny?
• Breaks/Rotors
• The front diff - when did you change the gear oil last?

Good luck!

 

I posted this on one of the FB groups, and a few other people mentioned tires. I'm starting to think that it could be the tires. A few people mention having them roadforced , not going to do that because the tires are basically junk, they're 5 years old with 86k miles. I also wanted to sort out these issues and install the lift I have sitting in my spare room before getting new tires.

I had thought the wear pattern doesn't seem bad on them, there's no extra outside shoulder wear or weird pattern on the tread, but after examining it more closely today I noticed that there is a little bit of feathering on the inside shoulder blocks. I believe that's the term, the leading edge of one block is a tad higher than the trailing edge.

 

When are you planning to replace those tires? Two anecdotes I’ll share…

in May, I replaced a noisy, worn out set of BFG KO2s with Toyo AT IIIs and immediately noticed a subtle growl that is more noticeable when coasting than accelerating. The noise changes in 4HI, but I can’t rule out tire noise. I do have an ECGS bushing on hand to install when needed.

I had a Saturn Outlook (GMC Acadia) that developed a wheel noise that couldn’t be chased down. Seemed to be the front right. After replacing the intermediate shaft assembly (bearing obviously worn), followed by the front wheel bearings, then the rear wheel bearings, the noise persisted. Rotating tires and adjusting pressures had no effect. I figured it was the transmission differential or something related. Replaced the tires, noise gone. That was the most expensive set of tires ever.

 

That would be a good example of tred feathering. How often do you rotate tires and when did you get an alignment? Have you hit any hard potholes, curbs, bounced hard off-road prior to the beginning of this noise? Compare what feathering pattern you see to the 'toe-in/out' examples on this webpage.

 

I don't recall any significant impacts over the last 5k or so.

I don't rotate on any set schedule, last time was probably about a year ago when I had all 4 wheels off to inspect the brakes.

Last alignment was when I had the tires installed. I typically only have vehicles aligned when I get tires or have front end work done unless I notice a specific problem.

 

Hold up, if you are at 198k at 12 years old, your drive over 16k a year...was it ~16k miles ago since last rotation?

 

Needle usually higher pitch constant whine with speed, wheel bearing nasty growl especially turning in the beginning and moderate braking from 60-70mph. Tires chopping will sound like and feel like a bearing. I can't criss cross rotate these Mickeys and I am having to watch the wear, listen to the tune they play in relation to air pressure. I wasn't exactly sure which was causing what, but I started to hear the wheel bearing noise turning at low speed. The longer I drove it during the during the day, the hotter it got, I felt I could notice it more. I know a lot of people have had pinion bearing in newer models. I have AWD, with it always pulling and my inability to use brakes, it could contribute. 250k and I have had to reboot axles and replace one wheel bearing. I think loose lugs caused that actually. Big improvement over the older generations. It will probably be the longest lasting 4runner yet.

 

Sounds about right.

Even without frequent rotations, I still got a solid 80k out of them.

 

I have a '22 Orp. It falls in the range of full front diff replacement under T-SB-0075-23 V.I.N. wise. Now at 13,000 miles (Retired). Yah that sucks. No changes from stock. The needle bearing noise is quite apparent at city speeds. Mostly noticeable on decel once it's warmed up. Not when cold. Bearing type growl that is getting more cyclical. More noticeable on smooth roads of course. Completely gone when placed in 4wd. A front wheel bearing would have a noticeable noise change when swerving left to right when moving. I now have the ECGS bushing update in front of me. So the question is. Do I get Toyota to replace the front diff under warranty due to metal contamination from the needle bearing. Or just install the ECGS bushing and move on regardless of what Toyota says. I'm thinking ideally if I could get the dealer to install the ECGS bushing kit when installing a new front diff would be best case. Not holding my breath on that.