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5th Gen Steering Wheel Shake: SOLUTIONS ONLY

Discussion in '5th Gen 4Runners (2010+)' started by James P, May 18, 2022.

  1. May 27, 2022 at 3:41 PM
    #61
    Singleminded

    Singleminded New Member

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    That’s part of what’s maddening about this. It’s unpredictable. If you’re lucky it’s also infrequent. I’m not sure my experience qualifies as “infrequent” but it’s not far off AND seems to have improved over the miles I’ve driven since the balance I got a month ago, almost as if the truck is getting used to the new wheels and tires. (Does that make sense? Prob not lol. Then again my truck is in fact alive).

    If it was never worse than this I’d prob hardly think about it. But the extent of the problem before, and it’s unpredictability, has you always wondering.
     
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  2. Jun 9, 2022 at 1:16 PM
    #62
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    And it shall never be fixed via dealership! Placed a order for another 2022 with no deposit needed and same exact vehicle and options. Can test drive Overnight so we shall see. If I don’t want it it just goes on the lot to be sold that day.

    4F88B02B-4262-46D9-B458-A437DCEC8ECA.jpg
     
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  3. Jun 9, 2022 at 1:25 PM
    #63
    Singleminded

    Singleminded New Member

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    The "can't duplicate customer concern" and variations thereof is so frustrating. And so common. I like how they add that it's a truck so it's gonna have vibrations. That of course is true, but they don't seem to address what I assume you told them -- the steering wheel shimmies for no good reason. I'm grateful I guess that I have no body vibration issues since my second balance, and even before that the body vibration wasn't bad -- way better than when I tried E Loads on the thing -- but that F-N shimmy just comes and goes with no rhyme or reason, and was particularly bad yesterday. And to beat a dead horse, that was on the same stretch of road, in the same kind of weather and amount of heating of the tires and PSI, as on days it has had little or no shimmy. It's the damndest thing. Aaargh!
     
  4. Jun 9, 2022 at 1:28 PM
    #64
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    100% agree with you, curious to see how this new 2022 that shows up is...the sales lady is very nice that I deal with but I assume I would do my best to score another easy sale as well! I told her it’s sold if it isn’t all scratched and shakes LOL. Just gotta wait months to see.
     
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  5. Jun 9, 2022 at 8:16 PM
    #65
    lrizzo

    lrizzo New Member

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    My 2021 had this issue. Toyota tried to tell me it was normal. I went to an ETD tire shop by me for a 2nd opinion. Both my wheel balance on every wheel and alignment were off. The wheels were so unbelievably out of balance. I was told the port has a bunch of yard jockeys that don’t do a good job on balancing the wheels before they are installed on a new truck. Is it true wheels for certain trim levels are installed at the port? I had the black TRD wheels on my trim level. I could see where the wheel weights were originally due to the adhesive. When the ETD tire shop balanced my wheels the new weights were no where near where the original wheels were. So far 14,000 and it rides straight as an arrow and no shake in the steering wheel.
     
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  6. Jun 10, 2022 at 3:35 AM
    #66
    Spare Parts

    Spare Parts New Member

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    Yes the port would have put on the black TRD wheels.
     
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  7. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:21 AM
    #67
    Singleminded

    Singleminded New Member

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    Thanks for this post. It reinforces the point that extra balancing attempts are our only known fix.
     
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  8. Jun 10, 2022 at 12:07 PM
    #68
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    I had mine rebalanced at a very good place that deals with huge off road tires, only difference is the speed in which the shimmy starts go figure.
     
  9. Jun 10, 2022 at 12:16 PM
    #69
    wafersmith

    wafersmith New Member

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    My wheel shake went away when I changed out my front suspension.
     
  10. Jun 10, 2022 at 12:17 PM
    #70
    hossler1788

    hossler1788 New Member

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    Were they Road force balanced?
     
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  11. Jun 10, 2022 at 12:29 PM
    #71
    Vardeeg

    Vardeeg New Member

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    Made an account on this forum to quite literally reply to this post and shed some light on what I think might be happening here. I've owned my 4runner since 2016, bought it BRAND NEW with 6 miles on the odo. Test-drive went well, pulled the trigger, and wasn't sure if I ever noticed the wobble during the test-drive. Fast-forward a couple weeks and the shimmy was more noticeable or its just me being hyper sensitive to any shake, noise, or weirdness.... Got it balanced, and aligned still there. Said screw it, and put on K02s thinking the weight might even it out. WRONG. So I thought maybe its the tires, 4 different tire shops and still the same wobble. Different sets of tires, still same wobble.... No amount of permutations of this tires, alignment, balance recipe worked. Being an engineer I WAS NOT HAPPY that I was getting bested by this vehicle. Just a couple weeks ago, I stumbled onto a discussion around Toyota IFS and bearings. Low and behold, seems like our taco cousins have the same issue, I've seen the same issue reported on FJ Cruisers as well. Toyota uses whats called a needle bearing on the 4wd 8 inch IFS on the DRIVER side. THIS is the play that everyone keeps seeing. Toyota is using some terrible tolerances there, and at just the perfect MPH you'll trigger a wobble. There's a few companies that have come out with solutions around this. I know Yukon Gear and Axle has one thats on Amazon (hyperlinked). I'm FINALLY getting my lift on after putting 118k on the stock suspension ;) and I'm seriously debating trying to get this shoved in there as well.

    TL;DR: Toyota uses a needle bearing on any 4wd 8inch IFS on the driver side. Its got horrendous tolerances that would trigger the exact wobble A LOT of people are dealing with. Yukon gear and axle and a few other companies make a replacement part to remove any slack there.
     
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  12. Jun 10, 2022 at 1:20 PM
    #72
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Veeeery iiinteresting…..

    I was just jumping on the thread to say that after 30,000 miles of smooth no-shimmy driving, out of precisely nowhere, I got a shimmy. Probably 2-3 degrees deflection at the steering wheel, if I had to guess, maybe at 4-6 cycles per second. It happened maybe at around 40mph. I almost panicked! (Why me ?!?). But I ignored it and it went away after less than a min and some speed changes.

    @Vardeeg thanks for your theory. I have a plain bearing replacement from ECGS sitting in the box. Im planning to install it soon, but lost motivation for now because my needle bearing is quiet again since it got warm outside. But I have a question for you…what are your thoughts on how the poor needle bearing tolerances (and resulting axle movement) causes the shimmy. Through what mechanism? I cant picture that the axle moving around at the differential end, would have any leverage over what’s happening at the wheel end. Wouldnt any movement be isolated by the CV joints on the wheel side? Or are you thinking it’s a resonance that feeds into the tire somehow?

    There is a potential test that could really help determine if the needle bearing slack is the problem…. Put it into 4wd!!! If it’s the problem, the shaking should die out, and we can catch the needle bearing red handed!!!

    OK Who has constant shimmy and will be the first to try!?!?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  13. Jun 10, 2022 at 1:58 PM
    #73
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    At dealer yes, at off road place no, but same outcome.
     
  14. Jun 10, 2022 at 2:02 PM
    #74
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    I might have to try to put this in 4 wheel drive now when I get my shimmy, never thought of that. Maybe with my luck it will blow up
     
  15. Jun 10, 2022 at 3:40 PM
    #75
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Oh, cmon! It wont blow up (probably). :p

    Im curious, did you also have a noisy needle bearing? It would be pretty cool if this ends up being the culprit. I mean, not really cool, but cool in terms of a potential solution.

    If the needle bearing is the source, then the only mechanism I can picture is resonance. Which could mean it’s not the wheel shaking, it’s the lower control arm wiggling in it bushings! It would be interesting to get an opinion on this from @Vardeeg
     
  16. Jun 10, 2022 at 3:54 PM
    #76
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    Yes I did noticed it at 100 miles, had front differential assembly replaced at 950. Leaving work soon and hitting the highway if it’s a shimmy day then I will come back with a reply lol.
     
  17. Jun 10, 2022 at 3:57 PM
    #77
    Vardeeg

    Vardeeg New Member

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    From what I understand when you increase the angle on the CV itself, be it bigger sidewalls from tires, lift, pucks, etc... you increase the tension on the needle bearing, which has a tendency to wobble around. Now, if you asked me to explain HOW I think the play within the needle bearing affects the shaking of the steering wheel or the shaking of the actual wheels I couldn't tell you. I would assume it has something to do with the fact that the CV moves up and down MORE than it should, and I would think that affects the wheel for that given CV.

    @McSpazatron you are correct in theory. From my understanding the joints SHOULD be isolating said vibration at the wheel. So your guess is probably just as good as mine.

    Check this out: https://youtu.be/8mEeqCxReMo dudes experience was somewhat close to mine.

    Also just for some more info cause I'm feeling generous: Toyota has identified this as an issue, but has no solution other than replace the front diff. And there's multiple instances of people having the front diff replaced under the TSB, just to have it come back after a couple thousand miles. Here's the tsb for your viewing pleasure. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10153276-9999.pdf


    Its a clear issue thats plagued many a IFS Toyota for quite some time, be it FJ, Taco, 4R. Its VERY well documented on the Taco side, but seems like its just starting to make its way over to the 4R crowd.
     
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  18. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:04 PM
    #78
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    How in depth of changing the suspension did you go to eliminate that?
     
  19. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:14 PM
    #79
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Has the needle bearing noise returned for you after having the diff replaced?

    On a side note, it seems like you have tried everything. What are your state’s lemon laws? Could your problem qualify? I lemon lawed a civic I had. It was manufactured without the federally required LATCH child seat anchor points. It was integral the design of the car, and apparently, they just skipped that part of the assembly line (supposed to be spot welded to the rear deck, not a bolt on kit). I called honda hq and told them they had nothing to fix, because nobody would be welding on my car. They had some internal “mediation” people call me, and within a week they contacted local dealers and found one that would take the car back and give me one from their inventory. Honda HQ asked me to pay a small fee for the few thousand miles I put on the car, and I was on my way with a new car. This was not a sale or a trade, it was an exchange. I was surprised by how easy it was, considering I did not lawyer up. In your case, they just cant fix the problem. Maybe call up Toyota and see what they say? Describe the problem using numbers and take video. Talk like an engineer (frequency and amplitude of shake, lack of correlation to conditions, etc) and it might easier than you think.
     
  20. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:25 PM
    #80
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    On Thursday it was at the dealer for the field tech engineer guy, they deemed everything good with the vehicle and the shakes normal operation for a truck based suv, ordered another 2022 just the same as what I have and when it comes in I can test drive over night. If I don’t want it they can put it on the lot. No deposit needed. I will be at a few grand loss but would be worth no shakes. Needle bearing noise hasn’t come back but only at 3100 miles.

    8293F9F9-3779-4EB8-9314-76B53D4C4160.jpg
     
  21. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:25 PM
    #81
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    Thank you! We have a pretty good needle bearing thread going on this forum as well, buy you are the first Ive seen associate it with the wheel shimmy. It’s toing to be interesting if this theory pans out!
     
  22. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:26 PM
    #82
    Sixgunz

    Sixgunz Gold Member

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    Just brainstorming..

    Has anyone tried a different drive shaft? Fast spinning metal that can be temperature sensitive if it's not perfect. Many posts point to a temperature variation issue.

    Or perhaps putting nitrogen in your tires? I've always thought that was a gimmick, but nitrogen is less temperature sensitive than ambient air.
     
  23. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:46 PM
    #83
    McSpazatron

    McSpazatron New Member

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    They basically concluded the “ride characteristics” are normal, because the FTS tech really knows a lot of things…(the best things, everybody says so). :rolleyes:

    They could have just stopped at unable to replicate. Why bother implying a conclusion for something that was not replicated. This stuff drives me crazy.

    Too bad they did not state something along the lines of “steering wheel vibration of x to x degrees deflection measured at the steering wheel is considered normal”. Because they would know any shake is stupid. Especially for an IFS system

    Sucks, but I totally understand just considering the trade route. Especially if you want to stay 4runner. There arent many other appealing options.
     
  24. Jun 10, 2022 at 4:53 PM
    #84
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    Yep! I really like the 4 runner (trying to Atleast most days), 15 years ago I would consider a Tahoe, grand Cherokee, explorer, other SUV’s when they looked like good suvs but those days are gone. Only true looking suv to me is the 4 runner.
     
  25. Jun 10, 2022 at 5:07 PM
    #85
    Ajmogen

    Ajmogen Staying Stock

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  26. Jun 11, 2022 at 11:11 AM
    #86
    Too Stroked

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    I know this thread is supposed to be for solutions to the wheel shake issue, but I'm going to propose a very different possible cause that I have no solution to.

    Before I get to that, let me describe my experiences with the issue of steering wheel shake. I have about 28,000 miles on my 2021 SR5 Premium. I have absolutely no issues with the shake with my stock wheels and tires with or without 1.25" Spydertrax spacers. I do have occasional issues with my aftermarket 20" wheels and tires. I had these wheels on my 2014 Tacoma TRD Sport for 6 years and had no issues. The Tires are new and were Road Force balanced at the dealership I used to work at. The Road Force numbers were very low and none of the wheels required a whole lot of weight to get balanced.

    IMG_2035_1_(1)_262e8a84ff09ae958ccd5d6f1aef82ad1e1729f0.jpg

    Here's what happens with mine. Like almost everyone else, I only experience the shake at 60 MPH or above. I also only experience the shake once in a great while and the shake is very minor. What I do notice is that if the shake occurs when driving in a straight line, if I go into a corner, the shake will almost always go away. Looking at it another way, I probably just came out of a corner before the straight when the shake starts.

    Given that the position of each front wheel relative to the opposite side does not change in a straight line, but does in a corner - because one wheel travels further than the other - I'd suggest that this is a harmonic issue. I'd further suggest that the reason the issue is only intermittent is that the two front wheel need to be in a perfect position relative to one another in order for it to happen. How does on fix a harmonic balance / imbalance issue? It is technically possible, but requires a good understanding of what is actually vibrating and why. Your thoughts?
     
  27. Jun 11, 2022 at 11:23 AM
    #87
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    I do notice with mine if it isn’t shaking, taking a on-ramp or over pass that turns at highway speeds makes my shimmy appear.
     
  28. Jun 11, 2022 at 11:47 AM
    #88
    Too Stroked

    Too Stroked New Member

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    Does it go away the next time you enter a corner?
     
  29. Jun 11, 2022 at 11:54 AM
    #89
    Tmiesowicz

    Tmiesowicz New Member

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    Slowly vanishes as I go on in a straight line.
     
  30. Jun 11, 2022 at 12:08 PM
    #90
    Too Stroked

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    I rest my case.
     

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