AudioControl Amp does not correct the Toyota all-pass filter?

Hello,

I have two AudioControl amplifiers (LC-1.800 & LC-4.800) from my previous car that I'd like to install. I'm keeping the factory head unit (non-JBL) but replacing the speakers (Infinity Kappa throughout & Alpine Sub). I read in a post AudioControl doesn't correct the All-Pass filter in Toyota's. Has anyone heard of this? Crutchfield said they had not heard this before, but suggested an Alpine PXE-C60 DSP if it is the case?

Any guidance is appreciated.

Also, are the factory speaker wires 16 gauge?

Head Unit:
I would like to keep the stock head unit. I realize doing this will require a DSP/LOC to correct the signal coming off the head unit. I originally looked at the AudioControl brand, but was moved away from it after I found that didn't correct the Toyota all-pass filter that is in place. Because of this, additional research led me to the Helix brand. It seems Helix is the way to go to correct the Toyota signal. Can someone recommend a good model for this task? I'm also unsure if I should go DSP/AMP combo. If there is another recommended make for Toyota factory head unit integration, please let me know.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/thre...help-with-car-audio-upgrade-thank-you.469586/

 

no responses? bummer; you didnt directly list the model year .. simply non-JBL .. so let's assume 2018?
ok so some attempt at help if @Ameenah007 hasnt already moved forward with a solution.

I see some related discussion here:
https://www.4runners.com/threads/au...the-toyota-all-pass-filter.45540/#post-738528
16GA wiring is the size
https://www.4runners.com/threads/audiocontrol-amp-does-not-correct-the-toyota-all-pass-filter.45540/

though as this wattage you aren't in any danger zone so don't fret that.

First
"In Toyota vehicles, all-pass filters are used in the factory audio system to adjust the phase of the audio signal, improving the stereo image for both the driver and passenger.These filters manipulate the phase of different frequencies, ensuring that the sound reaches both listeners at the same time, which can enhance the overall listening experience.However, they can present challenges when upgrading the audio system, potentially requiring adjustments with a digital signal processor (DSP) to achieve optimal sound with aftermarket components."

Ok so this is talking about signal timing mostly, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

some more technical reading:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/all-pass-filters.437565/
https://www.bestcaraudio.com/oem-audio-101-does-it-matter-if-my-factory-radio-has-all-pass-filters

You didn't specify and model numbers for: "Infinity Kappa throughout & Alpine Sub", so I'm not sure if you are trying to build an ultra SQL solution on a budget or what.

The amplifiers
LC-1.800
https://audiocontrol.com/car-audio/power-amplifiers/lc-1800/
&
LC-4.800
https://audiocontrol.com/car-audio/power-amplifiers/lc-4800/

are "simple" amplifiers in that they do no signal summation or processing. They amplify what is given to them (factory signal).

The Alpine PXE-C60 DSP is a nice DSP; but Ive heard from several people the tuning software is trash / hard or impossible to use.
https://www.alpine-usa.com/product/pxe-c60-60-optim6-sound-processor

You didn't list any LOC (line out convertors) but my suggestion would be the PAC solution
PAC LPHTY02
https://pac-audio.com/products/rp4-2-ty11
**EDIT** crap this isn't what I thought it was .. I thought it was more similar to
https://pac-audio.com/products/ap4-ty13
***

SO -- yeah that won't work.

Kicker KEYLOC
https://www.kicker.com/keyloc-smart-line-out-converter

This will plug directly into the radio and give you a nice clean signal you can you for whatever amplifier solution you want. I would keep amplifier and DSP separate because you never know when you want more wattage

OR perhaps evaluate (and compatible amplifiers)
iData Link Maestro AR Part # ADS-MAR
https://www.idatalinkmaestro.com/en/products/maestro-ar/


Now Helix -- very top rated DSP brand and you surely can go crazy here.
My suggestion is to do the amplifiers you listed with the PAC solution I listed. And give it a listen. If you think the sound stage is too flat or you want to manipulate it .. THEN add a standalone HELIX DSP.

HELIX P SIX DSP ULTIMATE
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/helix/amplifiers/p-six-dsp-ultimate

If you want to really go down the rabbit whole of SQL - that is another whole conversation. The owner over here: https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/ is active on Reddit and you can surely pick his brain https://old.reddit.com/user/Skiz32

Here is what I did:
https://www.4runners.com/threads/2022-jbl-audio-replacement.44929/#post-740080


and I am not alone in my suggestion(s):
https://old.reddit.com/r/CarAV/comments/18ru4cm/comment/kf4qcyv/

I would be REALLY curious if the Alpine amplifier solution sold in this kit does anything for the all-pass filters
https://trailgridpro.com/collection...annel-amp-powered-subwoofer-kit-10-24-4runner

I would say no since the family of amplifiers is
https://www.alpine-usa.com/product/s-series-amplifier-s2a55v

 

Thank you Oscar your very detailed response. My T4R is 2024. The AudioControl amplifiers have Line Output Convertors built in, but they may not correct the

.

I ordered the Helix DSP Mini Mk2 – 6 Channel DSP, as I plan to install component speakers of very good quality in the front/rear doors and disconnect the hatch speakers. The LC-4.800 is 125 watts RMSx4 ohms per channel amp, (14ga speaker wire) I'm considering Morel Tempo Ultra 602 MKII in the front and Morel Tempo Ultra 502 MKII in the rear doors due to their higher watts RMS handling; Or Hertz MPK 165.3 PRO front/rear. I'd love to hear your opinion/suggestions on speaker selection. I will also be applying at least 65 sqft of SoundSkin.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_301MP... page)-,Hertz MPK 165.3 PRO,-Mille PRO Series

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210TU...Morel Tempo Ultra 502 MKII,-Morel Tempo Ultra

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210TU...orel Tempo Ultra 602 MKII,-Tempo Ultra Series

 

it reads like you are on the path to a great solution.

The overall reason / theory for component speakers is to get the sound stage "off the floor" for the listener. That is to bring the vocal separation physically higher in the car.
Unless your goal is to satisfy rear passengers often with the listening experience, most people would say save your money for the front sound stage. The passenger rear doors can be coaxial.

You listed a 5 1/4" speaker why?
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210TU5022/Morel-Tempo-Ultra-502-MKII.html#

Stick with the 6.5" components - either of which currently listed would work fine.

Realize that no amplifier is 100% efficient and the rated 125 watts RMS is in VERY short bursts.. so when shopping on the speakers don't get too hung up on perfectly matching this. Now don't buy a 25 watt RMS speakers and expect it to live long on 125 watt RMS amplifier ... but a speaker in 100 watt range will most likely be OK . Especially if you are sticking with not garbage products as you already listed.


https://hertz-audio.com/product/car-audio-coaxials-mille-pro-mpx165-3/


Looking to get even better sound imaging .. get the tweeter out of the dash and not reflecting off the windshield.
https://customspeakerpods.com/product-category/toyota/4runner/

you could then also do a 3 way solution.
https://www.focal.com/products/ps-165-f3e

to further push the frequency separation.

for speaker gauge - just because the amplifier allows it, doesn't mean you need to use it. If you are mounting those amplifiers under the front seats, 16GA is plenty for the wattage and the distance, but if you are running new wire anyways then sure run 14GA.
https://soundcertified.com/what-size-speaker-wire-guide/

you may be shopping "main stream" brands (Morel / Focal / JL Audio) but there is a whole ocean of niche brands out there
here are a few I had gathered in my travels:

Arc Audio
https://www.arcaudio.com/arc-subwoofers/arc-12-inch-subwoofer
Adire Audio
https://adireaudio.com/
Audio Dynamics
https://adcaraudio.com/store/
Audio Frog
https://www.audiofrog.com/
Audison
https://audison.com/
B2 Audio
b2audiousa.com
Blam
https://www.blam-audio.com/en/
Brax
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/brax/
CDT Audio
https://www.cdtaudio.com/cdtnew22/index.htm
DynAudio
https://dynaudio.com/car-audio
Fi Car Audio
https://ficaraudio.com/
Focal
https://www.focal.com/catalog/car-audio
JL audio
https://www.garmin.com/en-US/c/automotive/car-gps-navigation/?FILTER_CATEGORY_CARS_SPEAKERS=true
Morel
https://www.morelhifi.com/en/products/car-audio/
Stereo Integrity
https://stereointegrity.com/product-category/subwoofers/
ZR Labs
https://www.zr-speakerlab.si/products.html

the sound treatment (SoundSkin) is going to do a decent job helping out .. just ensure what that product does and doesn't do for noise.
you maybe want to read through this for actual data and an idea of complementing products
https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/r...-deadening-material-independent-testing-data/

more 4runner related reading:
https://www.reddit.com/r/4Runner/comments/1iqsbrs/5th_gen_orp_stereo_upgrade_kept_factory_head_unit/
https://www.4runners.com/threads/2021-limited-the-jbl-system-is-underwhelming.22355/#post-283226
https://www.4runners.com/threads/wh...-gen-4runner-today.2261/page-1201#post-677422
https://www.4runners.com/threads/those-you-have-tweeters-worth-it.44076/#post-707514
https://www.4runners.com/threads/sanity-check-for-build.31100/

there is a thread on this forum showing a 4runner gutted with all the seats out and full sound treatment.. I thought I documented it.. but alas right now I can't seem to find it.

have you already purchased the AudioControl amplifiers? It seems you might be suited with a better solution if you are chasing SQL.

 

I'm one of the people who took this journey a few years ago and posted in some of the threads linked above.

My conclusion after spending lots of time and money and being a rather capable person mechanically, electrically, musically: The output of the stock head unit is trash. You can get some improvement but it's a questionable value.

My testing with a mic and frequency analyzer proved to me what I'd read elsewhere: The EQ curve coming out of the head unit is variable depending on the volume. Therefore, unless your correction mechanism is dynamic and corrects in real-time with variable input, you're only gonna be able to tune for one range of volume settings.

I know AC and some other manufacturers have tried to account for this with features like "super bass" (don't know what the AC setting is called at this point) but it's not a solution.

If you care about sound (and I don't even mean to a neck-beard, nerdophile, audioquesting extent) get a better head unit.

Jason

 

Dream Killer!!! I want my oversized control knobs within my blind reach. I'm sure once I've heard it with my own ears, I'll finally rip it out and install a proper head unit. Maybe I'll install a bass knob on the 4-channel amp within my reach. I know you're right and I may not even need a DSP if I change the head unit.

 

Sorry for shitting on your dreams. I had the same dream.

I have a DSP and a bass knob too ;-0

I am missing the "fix the holes in the mids and muddy sound" knob and can't source one.

Jason

 

perhaps not as big as factory but at least these options have a knob!
https://stingersolutions.com/products/toyota-4runner-horizon10-radio-kit
https://www.kenwood.com/usa/car/excelon_reference/dmx1057xr/
heck I think this solution might also work
https://www.dasaita.com/collections/all/2010-2019-toyota-4runner-esr4800476

good luck in your decision... be sure to chime in here when you have it completed.

 

Since I have the JBL head unit I was able to use
https://pac-audio.com/products/ap4-ty13
"The AP4-TY13 R.2 provides a 6-channel pre-amp output for use with aftermarket audio equipment. Using the full range, fixed level head unit output, in conjunction with data bus messages, the AP4-TY13 R.2 delivers a variable 5v RMS pre-amp output with fading, balance, equalization, and level control capabilities. "

I'm curious if you ever had an opportunity to measure while using this solution?

 

Hello again Oscar,

The 5 & 1/4 Morels are for the rear doors. Moving the tweeters to the A pilar is an excellent idea. Thanks for the list of speaker brands, I clicked every link. I hadn't considered Audison. I want full sound all around me in the truck and when I relax outside the truck camping.

I've seen the T4R gutted & sound treatment applied on this forum, I'm debating using 2 rolls of SoundSkin ~ 125ish sqft, I looked into Resonix, (I back ordered their Helix amp), but they are constantly out of the material.

The AudioControl amps are from my previous car. Trying to fit them into this truck and safely mount the 12" Alpine Subwoofer box (also from my previous car) in the rear cargo area has proven to be quite the challenge. I'm thinking of drilling a hole for a couple of eye bolts into the back of the sub box and anchor it to the child seat attachments. Praying I don't hurt it drilling into it. I'll put the amps on amp racks under both the driver & passenger seat or under the rear passenger seat. I need all the room I can spare for the HAM/GMRS/CB radios also mounted on the amp racks under the front seats.

 

I don't have the JBL system in mine so this is not applicable in my case.

I've put this project to rest as of a couple years ago and just tuned what I have to sound decent at volume levels 30-35 on the stock head unit.

I have too many other interesting/fruitful projects to work on (I build motorcycles, tools, furniture, even an ADU last year) to continue faffing about with this one.

Jason

 

rear passenger doors are also 6.5" (at least in my 2022 they are)
rear lift gate is also 6.5"

The components in the rear passenger doors are not going to influence on the sound stage at the drivers seat. Unless you are a passenger in the back seat often, simply use coaxial speakers in the rear.

want more sound immersion, put more speakers in the front door, I already linked to the door speaker pods available for the 4runner.

Maybe do like the FJ Cruiser did and put speakers in the ceiling?
https://parts.longotoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-roof-speaker-8616028660
https://www.fjcruiserforums.com/posts/1927992/

It seems the LG announcement never went anywhere?
https://news.lgdisplay.com/en/2022/11/lg-display-develops-invisible-speakers-for-automobiles/

You want a mobile concert? I think you might go down this path: seriously, llike this thread says
https://www.4runners.com/threads/idea-battery-powered-hatch-speakers.45698/#post-742074

just get a bluetooth speaker
these work great
https://www.jbl.com/bluetooth-speak...OOMBOX-3-_color=Squad-AM-Current&locale=en_US

and if you want more party
https://www.jbl.com/party-speakers/PARTYBOX-STAGE-320.html

 

I did my best trying to keep the head unit as well, just a huge pain in the butt and spent money on so many things that just didn't work right. The head unit is trash, plain and simple.

I have warned everyone about trying to keep the head unit but it it seems everyone wants to try anyway. I guess if you really don't care about sound quality it can be done. But a new head unit is soooo much better and you will have so much control over your sound quality.

A system is only as good as its weakest component.

 

I'm telling I'll find the Magical, Mystical, Miracle, Component that all the thousands of T4R owners on this forum alone, just simply overlooked...

https://www.reddit.com/r/4Runner/co...sound with the factory,It all sounds perfect.

This guy is living proof it can be done! Though, I'm a DIYer, not a professional with advanced equipment and years of tuning experience... I'm going to tune the system with the OEM head unit to the best of my ability. But I am an Audiophile, & have in mind the replacement head unit, if/when that sad & tragic day comes.

 

I wish you luck! I tried serval DSP's and some blew up and others caused other audio issues. If you keep real low expectations its certainly doable since i did get it to work by going to a high end car audio place and it did sound so much better than stock. But i still ended up replacing it with my Kenwood DMX and what a night and day difference in sound and only with a 6 cannel Alpine amp and speakers.

 

This is the head unit I have in mind!

 

Yep You're Right!!! The Crutchfield website speaker size for the rear/hatch doors is 5 & 1/4" for the 2024 T4R.

My system will be slightly less than the White 4Runner... The Bluetooth speaker is a great idea, though I will have a dual battery system to give myself a jump when needed.

 

Lol, that DIY Mobile Audio post is my thread!

For what it's worth, I went with the Helix DSP Amp with high level inputs (Helix V Eight) and I'm very happy with the sound with the OEM Head Unit. Perhaps a true audiophile would hear issues with it immediately. The only items I have done is put each speaker in their respective zone (front, rear) and crossed over the correct frequencies to each speakers (Dash wired directly to DSP AMP in 1 channel, Door Speakers (oem wiring) wired to 2nd channel, and Rear Door Speakers (oem) wired to 3rd channel) - my 4th channel is unused, but I may keep it for a tweeter for a 3-stage setup eventually. I bypassed the hatch speakers to maintain the 4 ohm load on the rears. Even with these basic settings, the stereo puts a smile on my face. I can't even imagine how it will sound when I get more experience with the more advancing tuning features. I found some enthusiasts on the web who will do a remote tune for around $500, but I think I would rather slowly do it myself in time as I learn more (lots of info on youtube). Out of curiosity, I might buy the Bluetooth module for the Helix DSP Amp to stream directly to it to see what the sound quality is like (this will bypass the head unit). I think Mosconi also has a bluetooth device that connects with fiber to a DSP with a fiber input - All great work arounds in my opinion!

I also did add a little sound deadening to each door (I have never done that before) and it appeared to help.

With time, I believe I will eventually replace the head unit, but I wanted to keep my vehicle in a stock-like state as long as I can. It would be a little different for me if this was a 10-year old vehicle.

I'm sold on what a DSP can do to a vehicle's sound.

 

which white 4 runner?
this or this

 

That's insane!

 

This is my plan exactly! I love learning new things & what better thing than tuning my audio system to my maximum, personal, enjoyment.

 

This one! I'm doing slightly less than that!