When the new 4R finally arrives there might not be any room on dealer lots for them

Is your neck still sore from unleashing all those horses?
Did you do any towing with them?

 

Yes, I failed Raping the World for Profits 101.

 

That would disappoint the three people that really want the turbo 4 banger.

 

I had to wear a neck brace for 6 weeks, but I'm ok now.

 

I’ve always considered the 4Runner to be the Swiss Army Knife of vehicles. A jack,of all trades but master of none.

Please elaborate which morals you are referring to.

 

They better price it to move, there are relatively affordable new "LC"s here that can't move after 2 months with 3k on the hood

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/0f615e68-8fa4-4bd8-b324-620b0087aa9e/

 

Well, this should help Land Cruiser and Tacoma sales in the short term.....only four new 4R's left within 500 miles of me...

 

And those are probably already spoken for by someone with a deposit, or a zombie listing for units that already sold.

 

I rolled up next to the new land cruiser yesterday in Denver. Black with black out tint. I thought is was a new grand wagoner at first glance. I miss my 86 fj60. No opinion here as of yet other then I could wrench on that fj60 pretty darn easily. I'd be lost if I had to work on these new vehicles.

 

especially the hybrid system.

 

Do all my own maintenance but never worked on a hybrid before so I googled it.

"...wear appropriate protective gear like high voltage gloves, insulated boots, and a face shield."

That sounds fun. Lol

Walk around of new Tacoma hybrid system which is same as new 4Runner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pqiie9Jzm8

 

I cruised the local Toyota store after church this morning.
Three $60k+ Land Cruisers, two $75k+ Sequoia, and probably 40 Tacoma on the lot.
Mighty glad I got my 5th Gen when I did.

 

I think that the hybrid battery is under warranty for 150K miles and the rest of the hybrid system for 100K miles. After that you are at the mercy of whatever the dealer wants to charge to fix it. No thanks. I’d trade in before that.

 

I wonder if Toyota has provisions in the Tacoma truck bed to bolt down a spare transmission.

The guy in the video kept talking about "standards" but so far real world, the bar is set much lower for reliability.

 

I just read this Motor Trend 1/2 ton pickup comparison test from 2023..... they absolutely destroyed the Tundra Pro..... a truly savage critique. It came in last place behind all of the domestics. Makes me sad.... because my '21 Tundra Pro was such an amazing truck. Toyota worked so hard for so long to get legitimate street credit in the full size pickup game and now they've flushed it all right down the toilet.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/...toyota-tundra-trd-pro-comparison-test-review/

 

The Tundra historically has always been midpack or at the bottom in terms of power(GM 6.2L, Ford EcoBoost), comfort(Ram with the coil springs), value(Rams were always 10k cheaper with incentives), interior appointment(Tundra had the Sienna interior for a long time), or on-paper capability when compared to its peers. The only thing going for it WAS its million mile potential with only routine maintenance and minimal fuss.

Without its V8 and the trusty 5/6 speed it's now just another pickup that people can't afford.

 

The big question is how did the people at Toyota not know that reliability was their biggest selling point over the domestics?

 

Same way Mercedes Benz built their reputation on being overbuilt and durable in the 70s, 80s and most of the 90s, then threw it all away in the early 2000s chasing gadgets and fads.

I can talk your head off about W116, W123, R129 and W140 MBs. LOL. But I haven't touched any benz newer than 2002.

I think of all manufacturers Toyota has the best shot at getting their act together in a few years but there is not getting away from the fact that

1: their vehicles are much more complex than before,
2: their older work force trained on their old Toyota Production System in 90s are retiring and the new generation trained on computers are no better and no worse than other companies' engineers and floor workers.
3: The Toyota Way has lost its way in pursue of margins and sales crowns
4: Japan is having a hard time finding good workers even in their flagship plants.

 

following on this train

#4 is the biggest hurdle. majority of the new gen take the easy jobs or easy route. its getting harder and harder to fill the working class jobs. i mean look at how people are complaining about wanting a living wage on entry level jobs that are suppose to help you get into the workforce and transition to better paying jobs.

i mean back in the 80s i use to work as a dishwasher. did i expect to get paid to support a family doing that? no

it was to train and get people to understand the general work ethic to help you move up the work ladder.

all that is lost now a days with this new gen people.

and thats how i see it.

and this passes along to all types of jobs, not just cashier, but assembly line, etc in the whole process of building cars (including suppliers)

 

You are missing an important component of Japans labor shortage. The population structure has less young people to fill jobs and support the large aging population. Low birth rates for decades has led to this and there is no easy solution anytime soon.

I know it's tempting to go into the generational assumptions about work ethic and decision making as the cause of modern problems. It's been going on all of human history and I am equally tempted by this thinking with some of the young people I work with.

Here's the reality, its not the 1980s anymore! The game has changed. People will always make decisions to benefit their situation based on the circumstances at hand. Its silly to expect someone of a different generation to share your perspective when the world is now different. Generational assumptions are a gray area. Population statistics are actual data.

 

Sorry for the book sized post.

I think Toyota will be OK. I don't believe, yet, that they have lost their way.
They are still taking care of the problems that crop up. They are replacing 100,000 engines in the Tundras. While many of us are pointing to that as evidence of the problem, I would ask what other company would replace 100,000 engines??
Let's not forget the 3vz head gaskets that were resolved, the 4th gen propeller shafts that were replaced, the 2016/17 Tacoma auto transmission woes that were remedied (I guess, sorta, depends who you ask), the fuel pump TSB on my 2019 when they (Toyota) sent me a letter in 2023 noting that the TSB appeared to have not been addressed on my vehicle.

Compare that to my experience with Hyundai. My wife had a 2012 Sonata when we met. It was a very nice car. But they have the known valve carbon concern due to GDI and that weighed on my mind. Shortly after her basic 5yr/60K warranty had expired, the ABS light comes on and turns out to be the clock spring. Oh great, that's gonna cost. We decide to bite the bullet and take it in only to be informed that "Oh yeah, that's been a thing. There is an extended service campaign on that. We'll fix you up". Great for us, but hey Hyundai, how about a letter, an e mail, carrier pigeon, something. A co-worker had a similar experience with a very new Hyundai something (Tucson or Santa Fe I think) that had a valve cover leak that subsequently fouled the alternator from the leakage. He had it repaired independently only to learn through the grapevine that there was a service campaign there as well. He complained and was directed to a process to turn in his bill and would be reimbursed. He got his money eventually but had to jump through cumbersome hoops to get it. It left a bad taste in both our mouths regarding Hyundai. It just seemed they took a wait and see if anyone complains attitude. My coworker and I both ended up dumping our Hyundais. We sold her 2012 Sonata and replaced it with a low mileage 2005 RX330 that is still running like a top despite being 7 years older than the Sonata. My friend at work took advantage of a Hyundai buyback due to issues with the vehicles dual clutch transmission.

As far as complexity, yes, they are getting more complex, but as others have mentioned in this or another thread, Toyota is slow to bring new stuff out and they mostly ensure the reliability of the new stuff they bring out. And most of that stuff is peripheral and won't leave you stranded. The engine in the new 4Runner/Tacoma has been out since 2021 in one of the Lexus models so Toyota would be aware if there is some major issue. The transmission in the Tacoma may be something or nothing. Give them some time to work it through - because they will work it through. A lot of us car guys like to point out how "new" things are just bound to fail more frequently but my 3rd gen had a lot of sensors and valves and switches that worked perfectly for 25 years and 285,000 miles. If you asked me in 1998 I would have admitted that a lot of that stuff was "just more stuff to break down".

I agree that workforce quality going forward will be a real hurdle. We will just have to see how things play out. And it's both the workers and the companies. When I started my career in the mid 80s I got three months of training/mentoring. When I retired last year the same company wanted new hires up and running in 7-10 days...

 

Population structure is only part of the problem.

A bigger issue that impacts all industrialized countries: we have been telling young people for 3 generations now that to achieve success, they need to go to college to get a white collar job, and in the process created a university-loan industrial complex that traps young people in debt just to achieve degree inflation and now millions of young people with college degrees can't land jobs that they have come to expect(30-50 dollars per hour out of school, in the US, for example).

Look at Japan or US or Germany or France or UK in the 1970s and 1980s, young people were okay with getting a factory or trade job making okay pay. It's not sexy but that's how an industrial economy works.

Today? They are constantly being told to go to college because without a college degree they will have upward mobility issues. But when they get out of college, they are not just competing with themselves but also inflow of population(Japan has a large immigrant population believe it or not), not to mention a post bubble economy in the case of Japan, and post-NAFTA world in the US, jobs flowing to Poland and Slovakia in the case of Germany.

Reality is, there is NEVER an easy solution to achieve a functional economy. There has to be a certain percentage of people willing to work in trades for modest wages. If everyone expects a high paying white collar job out of university(that everyone is entitled to, paid for by the tax payers) then don't be surprised that no one wants to work in factories.

 

From overflowing dealer lots to socio-economic challenges of a depopulating country. This thread got it all.

 

just to add gasoline to the fire: college educated people taking out 6+ year loans to buy 50k 4runners to drive to their 50k a year jobs is why Toyota is confident charging 60k for next gen 4runners.

 

100% agree.

 

Now let's dive into a discussion on the pros and cons of KDSS and its ownership implications.

JK JK.

 

The college thing is an interesting one. Is having a college degree and advantage anymore?

Everyone has a bachelors these days. Masters feels like a minimum unless you go the trade or startup route.

 

A ton of basic entry level office jobs now requires a bachelor's degree and pay under 20 dollars an hour even in major metro areas like the Bay Area. With the wide availability of free or low cost state universities and online schools, it's the new high school degree.

For an extreme case, look at China. This year they graduate something like 12 million bachelor's degrees holders, and many if not most of them resort to getting a Masters just to stay above water and even then it's bad for graduate degree holders. As a result in reality something like 50-60% of 18-24 year olds there not in school are jobless, even the gig work companies require a BA or BS.

Back to the US, if college degrees are such golden keys to a comfortable life, why is the current white house so hell bent on student loan forgiveness with such a booming economy? The equilibrium has been broken for a long time now with 18 year olds having not just easy but encouraged access to loans to waste 4-6 years of their lives just to end up working a 40k a year office job or worse yet, starbucks or something.

 

Every manufacturer would be replacing those engine because it’s a safety recall. Toyota isn’t doing it out of kindness. They are forced to. Before that they were trying to sweep it under the rug and giving owners a hard time about repairs.