Upgrade Yokohama to Michelin tires?

The older version of the defenders are a great tire, too. The new version has a slightly more compliant ride due to the stiffer sidewalls. The difference is subtle but it's there if you pay attention. Both versions are awesome in wet/slippery conditions. I don't think you can get a better wet/slippery tire without going to a dedicated winter tire.

 

Was thinking about changing to the Michelins when the Yokohamas on my 2023 Limited need to replaced. Currently ~35K miles and they are no where close to needing to be replaced. Unfortunately, I had to replace one tire about 6 months ago - got a screw right where the tread meets the sidewall and it couldn't be repaired. At the time, the tires had ~32K miles on them so I had them put the new tire on as the spare and I have only been rotating the 4 original tires every 5K miles. I really don't have anything negative to say about the Yoko Geolanders. They appear to be wearing very well - and I have no complaints about ride quality. Based on the OP's posts I'd say my snow/ice/winter driving is probably a little more severe than his based on frequency/amount of snow. Missouri is certainly not Minnesota - but we'll get 4-6" snowfalls pretty regularly - and maybe once or twice a winter get something in the 8-12" range - so I probably drive on snow more than the OP in a normal winter. I've had absolutely no problem in the snow with the Geolanders. They are probably not the tires I would have on the 4Runner if I was driving on snowpack/ice for 4 months straight - but even with a 10-12" dump here in Missouri the main roads are cleared within a few days - maybe you are driving on snowpack in your subdivision for a few weeks. In these conditions I've never had a problem in the snow with the Geolanders. I'm now leaning to just stay with the Geolanders when I need 4 new tires and then go back to rotating the spare in - which right now is a brand new tire.

 

@shooter1231 - Irrespective of which tire brand you have, if you had another flat on your Limited in the future, what are your thoughts about using that new spare tire since it would have a larger rolling circumference than the other 3 older tires? How long would you drive with the mismatched tire sizes on your full-time 4WD system?

 

For those who are interested, a visual comparison of the Yokos vs. the Michelins being discussed:

 

Good question FatChance. I would only use the new spare with the three older tires in an emergency to get to where I could have the bad tire repaired/replaced. I carry an air compressor in the vehicle. When I got the screw in my tire ~6 months ago - I didn't even put the spare on. Was able to use my air compressor to air the damaged tire up enough to get to the Toyota dealer which is right by my work/where I was going. I've been pretty lucky - had only this one tire issue with the 4Runner. Prior to this 4Runner I drove a 2010 Tacoma for almost 13 years. In that time I had maybe two flat tires - and each time I was able to use my air compressor to air up the tires enough to get to where I could get them repaired/replaced. So I haven't actually had to put a spare tire on one of my vehicles in over 15 years. In a situation where I could not air up the flat tire - I would put the spare on - but I would get the tire replaced that day/next day - I wouldn't drive around with a mismatched tire very long - not good for the front/rear diff or the center diff in the FT 4WD system. Which is why I am not using the brand new spare and only rotating the 4 original tires. If I did decide to go with a different tire when these Geolanders wear out - I would probably just buy 5 new tires and go back to rotating the spare in. If I stick with the Yoko Geolanders I'll only buy 4 tires and start rotating the spare in again also. The spare I have on the 4Runner now is only ~6 months old, with no miles on it. By the time my original tires need to be replaced the spare will only be ~2-2.5 years old - should still be good.

 

Good answer and in line with I would do in the same situation. I cannot even remember when I last had a flat tire. I do carry a Viair compressor and a tire plug kit for that reason and plan on using that first in any case. Just part of owning a Limited, the best version of the 5th Gen 4runners.

I made an appointment to have the new Michelins installed on Friday, so in for a dime, in for a dollar. I am not going to be getting into the usual game of lift kits, new shocks, new roof rack, new skid protection, new springs, roof top tent, mileage robbing, bad handling big off-road tires, new control arms, new sliders, etc., so in a sense, I am getting off pretty cheap in the silly T4R upgrade game by just getting rid of perfectly good tires and replacing them with marginally better tires and being done with it!

 

The LTX M/S2 is blockier



Hardly aggressive especially if up against anything remotely all-terrain but the comparison photo struck me as looking a little... smooth!

 

With a highway tire there's not enough difference in height between a worn tire and new tire to matter to the vehicle.

 

I think that's the wrong Michelin: they have both Defender (car tire) and Defender LTX, which is what Icebear posted.

 

Why, then, does Toyota recommend 5 wheel tire rotations for Limiteds with full-time 4WD, but only 4 wheel tire rotations for non-Limited models with part-time 4WD?

 

Maybe because Limited and TRD Sport are the only trims with matching spare tire. Others just have a black steel spare wheel.

 

Post edited with the Defender LTX. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Full-time 4WD is very sensitive to tires with mismatched rolling circumference compared to part-time 4WD. That is why Toyota recommends 5 wheel tire rotations for full time 4WD, so the tires wear evenly. Otherwise, the spare tire, when 4 wheel tire rotation is used, will become relatively more size mismatched as the miles on the other 4 tires increase, and they get relatively smaller than the spare due to normal wear. That is not a problem on a vehicle with part-time 4WD where a mismatched spare tire can be mounted on the front axle in 2WD (assuming it does not have a locker on that axle).

 

Because it does matter - and it can matter enough to cause problems. Original equipment Yoko Geolanders are 31.6" in diameter with a 99.27 in/8.27 ft circumference. They have 11/32" tread depth. A brand new tire at 31.6" diameter will turn 5280 ft/mi/8.27 ft/rev = ~638 revs/mile. A tire that is worn, but still good, say down to 5/32" tread depth, has a diameter of 31.6" - 12/32" = 31.23" (8.18 ft circumference). So, a tire worn to 5/32" tread depth will turn 5280 ft/mi/8.18 ft/rev = ~645 revs/mile. You replace a tire with a brand new spare, and the other three are worn down to 5/32" tread depth, the new tire makes ~7 revolutions per mile less than the other tires. Doesn't seem like much - but it is every mile you drive whether you are going straight, slight turns, sharp turns. If that new tire is on the rear of a part time 4WD 4Runner - the rear diff has to account for that 7 revs/mile every mile you drive. If that new tire is on the rear of a full time 4WD 4Runner - both the rear diff and the center diff have to account for the 7 revs/mile difference.

Certainly everyone can interpret this information for themselves and do what they want - but I would not risk uneven wear of my differentials for the cost of a tire (or tires). That's why you have a 5 wheel rotation for Limiteds with full time 4WD. If you do this - and you have to replace a tire after they are worn down some - you just put the spare on that matches the other three tires in wear/diameter. A new tire goes on the spare under the vehicle - and you only use it in an emergency - you don't rotate it in until you replace the other 4 tires. If you get lucky and never have to replace a tire - then you get the benefit of that set of tires lasting slightly longer because you are rotating 5 tires instead of 4. The downsides are: 1) you have a never used spare under the 4Runner and you want to change to a different tire brand - so you've got an unused tire that you no longer need if you want 5 matching tires - or 2) you have to replace multiple tires at once, or in quick succession, after they have some wear on them - in this case you need to replace 4 tires and keep a different diameter emergency spare that you don't rotate in, or you replace all 5 tires. Cost of having full time 4WD.

 

Well explained.

 

Well technically, it kind of is still a problem on part time 4WD vehicles. Say you have a part time 4WD 4Runner and one of your rear tires has a blow out. You put on the spare and take it in to get the tire replaced. If the tires have significant wear on them and you only replace the one tire on the rear - the rear differential will have to adjust for the difference in tire diameters (revolutions per mile). If you have to replace a tire on a part time 4WD vehicle, and the tires have significant wear on them, it would likely be recommend to replace either both front or both rear tires - but not necessarily all four.

 

Actually, the center diff only has to account for 3.5 revs/mile.

Not that I'd want to run it regularly, but I don't think it would be an issue for short term use.

 

Agreed. I don't think it is really an issue unless there is significant wear between tires on the vehicle - and even if there is significant tread wear differences I think it would still be fine to use the tire with different tread wear in an emergency situation. In that case though, I wouldn't drive like that long term. A week, or two, to get the tire repaired/replaced isn't a big deal - I just wouldn't drive the vehicle around like that for months/years. This is just a guess on my part - but if you have to replace a single tire shortly after you purchase the vehicle, or shortly after you just got new tires, and there is no more than a few 32ths of tread wear on the tires - you would probably be fine to just replace the one tire and drive on.

If you look at the 5 tire rotation pattern that Toyota recommends every 5000mi - you can see that the drivers side tires are swapped front to back and on the passenger side the rear tire goes to the front, the spare goes to the rear, and the tire that was on the front goes under the vehicle as the spare. The tires are not switched from side to side. This means that the tires on the passenger side will have less tread wear over time because 3 tires are being rotated on that side vs. two tires rotated on the driver side. Over a typical tire life of 60K miles each tire on the passenger side will only see 40K miles of actual wear - but the two tires on the driver side will each have 60K miles on them. I would think you would end up with more tread wear on the drivers side than on the passenger side if you follow the Toyota recommended 5 tire rotation pattern for Limiteds and TRD Sports (4Runners with P245/60R20 tires and matching spare wheel).

Most of the P245/60R20 highway tires have 10/32"-11/32" of tread depth when new - and most dealers/tire places are going to strongly recommend new tires when you get down to about 3/32" tread depth. So, in the 5 tire rotation pattern Toyota recommends - once the tires on the drivers side get down to 3/32" tread depth - the tires on the passenger side are probably at 5/32"-6/32". This would indicate that a 2/32" to 3/32" difference in wear on tires is probably not an issue with respect to abnormal differential wear. I'd probably never let my tires get down to 3/32" of tread depth, most people wouldn't - that's getting into the unsafe zone. If you get new tires once you are down to ~5/32" tread depth - then the difference between the driver and passenger side tire wear would be even less - 2/32" max.

 

While I am sure that Toyota knows what they are doing, their 5 wheel tire rotation prioritizes having the tires rotating in the same direction (keeping them on the same respective side of the vehicle) over keeping the tire circumference the same between all 5 of the tires, as you mentioned.

There are alternative ways to do a 5 wheel tire rotation, depending on the vehicle type and whether you want to prioritize tire rotation direction (Toyota's priority) or tire size (as shown here on the right side):



Edit: I just watched a Youtube video in which Tire Rack recommends the "rearward cross" 5 wheel tire rotation shown on the right in my above attachment for full-time 4WD vehicles.

 

Not sure why Toyota recommends the non-crossing tire rotation pattern. I don't think either of the P245/60R20 tires that come as original equipment on 4Runners (Yokohama Geolander and Bridgestone Dueler) are directional tires - so they should be able to rotate in either direction - which would allow a crossing rotation pattern. My assumption would be that Toyota recommends the non crossing rotation pattern, and uses these patterns when rotating customer's tires, in case the customer has installed directional tires on their vehicle. Maybe the concern with uneven tire wear causing differential problems is less than having their service guys deal with determining if a customer has directional tires on their vehicle and then selecting the correct tire rotation pattern. Easier to just rotate the tires the same way every time. And again, if you rotate your tires like you should, and replace the tires before they get to a dangerous level of tread wear there shouldn't be more than a couple 32ths of tread wear difference between the tires. If I recall correctly, I think Subaru is very strict on tread wear difference allowed on their AWD vehicles. I believe if there was more than 2/32" of tread wear on the tires they would tell you to replace all four tires if you had to replace one - to avoid excessive wear on the center diff. So, if 2/32" of tread wear difference is nothing to worry about - and that is the most you would probably have if you properly rotate your tires and replace them before they are unsafe - why worry about using a crossing rotation pattern knowing that some customers may have directional tires on their vehicle.

I have also read that in vehicles with the engine in the front and driving on the right side of the road - the passenger side front tire wears the fastest of all the tires - mainly due to camber of the road (road sloping to the right for water run-off causes vehicle weight to shift to right also) - and left turns tend to be taken at a higher speed than sharper right turns. The passenger side front tire travels the farthest of the two steering tires during the faster left turns. Factors like this could certainly even out the above assumed difference in tire wear associated with rotating the spare in only on the passenger side.

 

To close out this thread, I had 5 new Michelin Defender LTX M/S2 XL rated tires, in stock size 245-60 20, set to 35psi, installed on my 2024 Limited (with 5100 miles) earlier today. They all had a 2325 Dot date! These replaced the stock size, original equipment Yokohama Geolandar G96B SL rated tires.

I drove about 80 on-road miles after having them installed at Discount Tire in Cottonwood, AZ. It was hot and dry and I mostly drove on smooth paved roads but did go through some rough road construction sections. The tire balance seems to be spot on, no issues. The Defenders are just a little bit harsher on rough roads, as expected with the XL rating but are quieter on smooth roads. The stiffer sidewalls seem to give a smoother, more planted ride than the Geolandars SL rating (due to the 4500lb T4R weight?).

But the biggest difference is their stability. The Geolandars seemed to wander, especially at higher speeds. The Defenders tracked more true when driving on our central Arizona twisty roads. Set your line in a turn and the truck just tracked accurately with no small steering corrections needed. Also the directional stability was distictly better, there was no wandering noticed at 80mph when it was 100* outside on my way home.

It feels like the Defenders are a perfect match for my 2024 Limited with the Xreas suspension. I think the XL rated stiffer sidewalls works better with the more compliant Xreas suspension than the SL softer sidewalls do. I have no idea how these would work with a non-Limited T4R, but owners of those models are less likely to consider on-road focused all-season tires anyhow.

Edit: of course, trying these out in the snow today was not a possibility, but they are pretty well reviewed for snow, for an all-season tire. Also, the tread channeling looks like they would be good wet road tires.

 

They're absolutely fantastic in the snow. You won't be disappointed.

 

op: you will feel difference only if you go with 17". Michelin has good soft side that makes riding softer, if you care. it is only true for Highway Terrain - HT tire