VW Data Leak Exposed Owners’ Movements

What does your owners manual say? My 2024 manual clearly states that the car may send data to Toyota without notifying me.

 

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...ta-that-can-be-used-to-raise-insurance-rates/

It's something, time-limited and not settled but eh?

 

If you don’t select anything, they can’t sell the data to others, but can use non-precise data for internal purposes.

Basically, whether you decline or don’t do anything isn’t as important as simply not accepting.

 

Today, I called Toyota Connect phone number (800-331-4331) and the rep told me I opted out back in April 2024 when we bought our 4Runner. This seems odd to me because I was getting mileage / Tire pressure status in the Toyota app for a while until I opted out through the app somehow a couple months ago. I am probably going to remove/bypass the DCM for extra security, but still researching the things that will be impacted by doing this.

I feel I was born in the wrong generation. I'm not optimistic about AI and this "always connected" mindset that society is aiming for.

 

I heard stories of sales people accepting terms to get 'enrollment' bonuses.

 

More Of The Shame: Software Flaw Exposes Millions of Subarus, Rivers of Driver Data

 

That’s the same guy who figured out the unlock/start any Kia security flaw. (not to be confused with them being easy to steal which is a separate issue)

He’s doing great work and Subaru’s client-side 2FA is laughable.

 

Another data leak, only much worse this time. Website Exposes Tesla Owners' Personal Data

 

The time is nigh for the data collected on everyone over the last decades to be used in very unfortunate ways against owner’s personal interests.

What’s more unfortunate is that the aggrieved party in this case is led by somebody that has direct access to vast national data bases of personal info, and has the vast technical resources, AI tools, and H1b foreign tech employees necessary to quickly harness these (or any) databases in whatever way he sees fit. And arguably, he’s also the most powerful man in the world, and is in the best position to retaliate in any way he sees fit. This will not end well for anyone.

 

ANY data collection without the explicit approval of the owner of the vehicle should be 100% illegal. I am going through this ordeal with Mazda right now. Even if you never opt into their connected services, your vehicle feeds them tons of data constantly which can only be used against you. This is criminal.

 

Car Subscription Features Raise Your Risk of Government Surveillance, Police Records Show

 

I mean this as a direct observation, not as a political statement. Six months ago I don’t think anyone would have anticipated that someone entrusted with extremely high levels of federal executive power would also be the same person that retains ownership and control of Tesla, which is an automaker that probably collects/owns the highest amount of data from customers.

Any liberal, conservative, or person of other political persuasion should find this to be a completely inappropriate governmental arrangement in principle …because the concentration of power in one individual would make any potential misuse, error, or malfeasance result in wide reaching consequences.

Even if you currently trust in the person holding that combination of power, it should be a repulsive thought for society to accept that a single high level government official, with unexpectedly wide levels of executive power, to also have sole personal possession and control of so much personal information, data collection mechanisms, and data analysis capacity. It’s a situation that has the potential to allow for insane levels of abuse, and abuse that would be extremely hard to discover. Regardless of the particular individual.

So yeah, cops having access to this data seems kind of a quaint, old-fashioned concern, in comparison to the situation Tesla owners find themselves in right now. Especially those owners that might interact with the government in some way (which is to say, nearly everyone that participates in society).

 

Not to be a conspiracy theorist but this is why I have stated repeatedly that I'm against tech in vehicles, especially internet/data connected... and refrigerators, and washers, and every other stupid integration of the IoT.

With vehicles, I don't like the idea of my freedom of movement being at the fingertips of anyone who may decide to cut it off because I did or said something they don't like.

It's interesting to hear people say things that essentially equate to "nothing to hide, nothing to fear", but that's only when certain people hold office that they agree with. Not sure how everyone doesn't yet realize the wild swing in US politics and just how quickly the current person in charge can be replaced by someone with a wildly opposite policy that makes you rethink whether you have "nothing to hide".

 

Some of us have been saying for years car tracking is dangerous but all the super-smart highly-educated tech-savvy intellectuals (who know what's good for you) were dismissing the concerns with "bUt yOuR SmArTpHoNeS" when their party was in power, as if we can just put our cars in a RF shielded bag when we travel.

 

I’ve been skeptical regarding data collection all the way since the advent of the internet. And I’ve watched in disbelief as things got worse and worse…as people/organizations became more and more dependent on products designed to cull data, as everyone remained unconcerned, and as these companies continued on with zero desire from government to impose regulatory guardrails for the public good (at least in the US).

That said, I don’t think the “tech savvy” folks are the ones being minimizing the dangers connected tech. Also, I’ve never been able to notice any clear political leaning with folks that say “but your smartphone”. As far as the “I’ve got nothing to hide” crowd, that just strikes me as simple self-righteous folks that don’t know enough to realize people can take advantage of them.

In fact, it seems that the more educated you are about connected tech, the more you realize all the vulnerabilities, and the less you trust it, rely on it, and use it. To the point that the people like Zuckerberg and other tech creators know enough that they don’t even use their own products.

The people that minimize these concerns are usually just the regular run of the mill fanboy tech consumers.…Or… (and more likely in my mind) they are regular people that have more immediate things to worry about in life, don’t have the time or energy to think about wider problems that are impossible to change individually, and quietly resent the feeling of being taken by the tide of connected tech in all aspects of life. The cognitive dissonance forces them to say it’s not a big deal because “we already have phones”. The reality is no one likes being compelled into all these data collection schemes. And all of us have to make ourselves feel better to minimize the subconscious resentment that’s brewing. We all feel powerless over these things when every aspect of our life is handed over to these tech companies. That powerlessness is exactly what these tech companies take advantage of. Their marketing efforts really lean hard into creating the impression that these things are inevitable, and we must accept it with a trusting attitude because it represents progress. Which is very rarely the case when you realize the end-user benefit of these products is not outweighed by the individual and societal risks.

For example, Just think about the sales pitch for “self-driving” cars. People accept hook, line, and sinker that this HAS to be the future because a trillion people per day die on the roads due to humans inability to drive safe. They weave a story with stats, and now everybody (individuals and government entities) thinks “self-driving” cars are the only solution. Along with their sales pitch is the subtext that you would be a horrible person if you didn’t gladly give access to all your personal and behavioral data and free use of your city streets to achieve the safety that Tesla, Google, and Uber are promising will come some day… “soon”.

The “intellectuals” that are telling us not to worry are the ones that are using you as a product in order to make money. Follow the money.

 

Fair enough. Many people currently on this very site have no problem with CARB and successive previous EPAs and admins using emissions and fuel economy to squeeze out well understood ICE technology in the name of "progress" and they are quick to ridicule anyone who doesn't want to rush into newer tech at all costs. But they are not eager to get out of their 5th gens, for some odd reason. They are often the very same people with the "but smart phones" attitude. I'm sure you have noticed too. Of course how their politics lean, who knows. The internet these days is full of "we voted team A for 5 generations and just now my _year old ______ War Veteran Dad is voting Team B along with everyone else" testimonials.

 

Team politics is sad. But that’s what we’ve become as political technology has improved the ability for parties to create opinions in the people, instead of representing the opinions of the people. Nowadays, most people can only spew party talking points like good girls and boys, without the faintest idea of what they are parroting.

Those with money are effective in lobbying government. There is one industry, and one company in particular with an interest in pushing out established ICE vehicles. Besides the self-driving scam, Tesla also been instrumental in forming opinions on electric cars over the last 20 years through politicians, who then brainwash loyal followers of the party. Very few people are in a position to honestly develop an opinion on the environmental virtues of electric cars. Those opinions are largely a reflection of marketing and lobbying efforts from Musk/Tesla.

But I havent seen a huge rash of those types of people posting on this forum, to be honest.

 

Stick around, they pop up whenever someone says something remotely not complimentary toward turbos and unrealistic mpg/emissions targets.

 

Thanks to Elon and his basement dwellers

 

All Tesla did in the early years was introduce the possibility of an electric car being “cool” to the masses since those that came before certainly could have some charm (EV1) but didn’t really have much mainstream cool factor. (I doubt any kid had a first gen RAV4 EV or Honda EV+ on a poster)

Since then, the federal government has an interest in less fuel use as a nation since the days of the oil embargo and California was hit hard by smog, I don’t agree that there was much pro-electric “brainwashing”

most any discussion online seems to fall into the same “can’t tow far”, “charging wait time”, “winter? lol” etc. negative talking points - all of which are either well-known shortcomings, compensated for by technology/perspective changes or not as big of a deal as it seems.

But are also valid to varying degrees but people tend to zoom in on potential shortcomings of the new and oversee the flaws of what they are used to. (See: apprehension at fast charging wait times not realizing one can charge at home - and that many wait in sizable lines at Costco Gasoline)

It’s a different way of powering a wheeled vehicle. Naturally it has pros and cons. Same way we don’t all drive 2500’s nor Mirages.

In fact, I think it has been largely the opposite with this different method of making a wheeled-box move being turned into a big political thing but I digress.

And then there’s Musk’s push to break things he doesn’t understand and alienate most of his potential customers. I can’t tell you who runs Mitsubishi North America nor their political opinions and it’s better that way.

I also haven’t heard any stories of said person claiming to be a manufacturing genius while also not knowing why the machines turned bolts backward first before screwing them in.

 

This is simply not the case. I am very concerned about my privacy regardless of party or movement in power. Fortuna est rotunda. People you don't like and disagree with will have power over you at some point (and vice versa).

Anecdote. Netherlands had highest percentage of casualties among Jews as the result of Nazi occupation. This was partially consequence of very detailed census that also recorded faith/identity. So when Nazi took over they had complete record of each Jew, their exact addresses, etc. Nobody taking pre-war census could have anticipated it would be used that way, but there was absolutely no reason to ask for such information on census.

 

This is why what is happening in Europe is so...fascinating to watch. Europe enacted some very liberal and tolerant policies in the past 2 decades, of which I personally do not object, that landed a lot of people on various government registries. But with the rapid change in demographics there, it's only a matter of time the newly minted voters decide is not to their taste. What happens after that...who knows...

 

How are you guys getting through license plate readers undetected?

 

This is the schizo thread I've been waiting for

 

Pretty big difference between license plate reader coverage and a record of everything your vehicle does, not to mention I don’t know if you expect folks to vandalize them.

 

Ok, maybe 6 mo ago people could anticipate Musk angling his way in, but I bet 9 mo ago most people wouldn’t have imagined he would have the power he currently has.

The census example is a perfect example of the dangers of data collection. Collecting and storing personal data can have completely unanticipated and extreme consequences. Physical military invasion of the country was necessary for Nazis to act on that census data. Today, bad actors barely have to lift a fingertip to act on much more detailed connected data given the processing power available to almost anyone that wants it. It’s only a lack of imagination that causes people to dismiss these concerns.

 

I get the sense you’re minimizing the potential tracking implications of license plate readers. They are a form of tracking nonetheless and are similarly susceptible to hacking, one would presume.

My question is for the people concerned with being tracked (for the record, I’m not concerned about it).

But if you’re going to the lengths to turn off tracking on your cars, phones, gps units, ect….how does that square with license plate readers? Are you trying to get around them as well?

 

In my opinion, I'd say factors include amount of data collected, how pervasive it is, it's use, what can I really control versus what can I not?

License plate readers as they are only offer snapshots of where the target vehicle has been at a specific time. No speed, no information on destination, etc.

In Dallas, DFW airport and toll roads in the city can certainly dig up when a given vehicle has appeared at certain spots (via plate reader and/or RFID sticker) but that's the extent of it. Maybe average speed between cameras but not especially useful.

For those mounted on patrol cars, not much immediate is to be done there and their deployment will certainly vary from department to department. I've seen a private car or two with them mounted on the trunk and I consider those a potential problem but rare so far.

As for the data handling, I can't say for sure if it will necessarily be better, but I would hazard a guess that it's going to be more of a pain for insurance or the gestapo to go track down license plate data from North Texas Tollway Authority, EzPass VA, or ______ Police Department versus setting up a single deal with Toyota for all connected owners. (That assumes it's handled in-house though and not farmed out to a large company.)

there's awareness too, I can't really do much about something I don't see or know about. Unfortunate, but just how it is. The other bigger ticket items tend to have the combo of being highly centralized and very detailed.

Regardless, got things to do and places to be!

 

Man, those things are popping up everywhere lately over here in the sticks.

 

Those are called Flock cameras and are all over Texas. They are used in police work for real time tracking of specific LPs. For instance, a robbery occurs and an outside camera captures the LP of the suspect vehicle. That information is entered into the system and when that LP is detected it sends every LEO in the area a text with the location. At the next intersection, same thing. It doesn’t take long for several units to zero in and make a stop. Same with stolen vehicles. It’s almost impossible to steal a car and get it to a port without having replacement plates, which theft rings definitely do for the high end vehicles. But Flock cameras are in road construction barrels where it’s a single lane, on poles at intersections, in neighborhoods where the speed limit is slow, you name it and they’re there.