Needle bearing issue?

Seems odd that some 2022/2023 have same problem after delivery ?

 

I know - baffling. Perhaps they are putting in old parts and some fail and others don't??? Still Toyota should never have this problem!

 

And them doing all that work is just a Band-Aid. It will come back.... Pick up the ECGS bushings etc and do it yourself or have it done and not have to worry about it again

 

Have been researching this here for a couple days, and its definitely what's going on in my '23. I didnt notice it right away getting used to the truck but started noticing around 150 mi, especially with my left foot on the dead pedal once I was coasting. Dropped in and out of 4wd twice on a straight, recently repaved road and was smooth as glass in 4. It was asked above but would doing the ECGS bushing be reason to for Toyota to void any other piece of the drivetrain warranty? I'd just as soon fix it myself permanently, but not if that opens me up to some other failure not being covered

 

Some dealers would try to deny you warranty coverage if you had Weathertech floor mats...

I cannot see how replacing a defective part with one that will outlast your truck could possibly affect warranty coverage. If so, there's a whole bunch of 4Runner and Tacoma owners who are no longer covered under warranty.

 

Agreed. The next time I have to deal with this I'm going to ask dealer to install the ECGS bushing on my 23.

 

Is it fair to say all 4 Runners don’t have the needle bearing issue, even after a long time? It can be hit or miss. Sounds like it is a manufacturing tolerance issue that reveals itself if the tolerances stack up in wrong direction. It can reveal itself early (driving home) or after some wear. I would be hesitant to install the ECGS bushing until the 60 month/60,000 mile power train warranty was up. But then that’s exactly what I would do. I have a new ORP on the way. If this failure showed up it would suck and definitely kill the new vehicle buzz. All we can do is hope it doesn’t show up , then deal with it when it does. At least when it shows up you know there is a known fix and it doesn’t cost thousands. Anyone have any idea what % 4 Runners have this issue?

 

The ratio must be quite significant. The service technician heard the noise during test drive but suddenly developed amnesia after calling Toyota for authorization. No TSBs for 2022/2023 yet.

Just an annoying groan especially when cold

Issue logged with NHTSA.

 

Over on the Tacoma forum I got the impression it was not widespread. I assume the differentials, front half axles and bearings are identical , but not sure. I think the ECGS bearing part is the same but again, not positive. I had a Tacoma for 7 years, 60,000 miles and never had any vibration, noise, etc while I read that some Tacoma’s did experience the problem.

 

Why would they forget when the dealer makes 3K off warranty work?

 

My wild guess is that the work wasn't authorized.
Because he was excited on reproducing the noise on a very cold morning. He was driving while I sat next to him.

After a whole day. He came back and said Master Tech couldn't reproduce and there wasn't any TSB for that year model.

 

All 4Runners and Tacomas have the issue (same diff), However, I agree with your assumption that in the right circumstances it compounds itself and it fails sooner than others. As I have stated before, Ive changed them on a '23 with basically no miles that was vibrating away and on a '14 with 80k miles that we did because we were there (torn cv boot) and never had any issues (definitely signs of ware in the needle bearing after removal but the owner never felt anything). I think Toyota admitting there is a problem is too costly. Also I've stated it before, but I am guessing that they swap diffs to just get people past the warranty... In my area, Toyota will not install any aftermarket parts as part of warranty work. I've changed the needle bearings out on more Tacomas than 4Runners. Tacoma groups are way more active in my area so I have a lot more connections there haha. They are in fact the same differential.

 

I have a 21 with no symptoms. Seems like upgrading to the ECGS superior part will cause no issues other than preventing a problem from occurring.

I have been holding off on lifting the past year researching options and concern of warranty claims being denied. Finally made the decision on what lift to get. Other than the risk Toyota will deny any warranty claim on after market parts is there a reason not to just upgrade the bushing? I agree in principle Toyota should fix the problem. For me I just want to fix a potential problem before it causes damage.

Would there be any benefit to waiting for the problem to occur and change bushing instead of replacing proactively?

 

Avoiding the back and forth with warranty claims and the service department was a deterrent enough for me to just do the ECGS bushing. Part is $60, additionally I was able to fine someone with a reasonable labor cost AND had done the removal/install several times.

 

From what understand, it won’t do any damage unless possibly really worn badly which would reveal itself with bad symptoms. If I were you I would wait until powertrain warranty up, then install ECGS bushing. But it’s possible you will be one that has no problem ever or maybe 200,000 miles. Seems the potential damage would be needles breaking off and finding it’s way into diff gears (ring, pinion, spiders) OR wearing the drive shaft until no acceptable fit can occur with replacement bearing (needle or sleeve). Again, I would think before that happens you would have symptoms.

 

If it isn't broke ... why fix it .. My 2c

 

I'm confused, so you all help me understand what is going on here. I thought that the front driveshaft and all the gears in the front diff were not turning when the 4Runner is in 2wd. So what exactly is moving to cause this vibration?

 

They are not being driven with torque from the transfer case. I’ll let an expert explain more? So if what I copied below is correct, the half axles (with CV boots) are spinning if the front wheels are rotating, even in 2WD.

 

I took this off a forum called IH8Mud.com. I assume it’s correct?

Automatic Disconnecting Differential (ADD): A 4WD system found on many Tacomas and 4Runners. Whereas traditional 4WD systems utilize manual locking hubs that must be locked by hand, the ADD system utilizes live hubs that are always locked. What this means is that even in 2WD, while moving, the driver-side and passenger-side axles and the differential are always spinning (the front drive shaft does not spin in 2WD). When in 2WD, although spinning, the driver-side axle is disconnected from the differential via a vacuum-actuated or electronically-actuated sleeve. When shifting the transfer case into 4WD, the front drive shaft is engaged, and the ADD actuator forces the sleeve toward the passenger side of the vehicle, effectively locking the splines of the driver-side axle with those of the differential.

 

I will state it another way - depending on the lift you're putting in, it may save some labor cost to replace the needle bearing when installing the lift, provided that installing the lift means removing the coilovers. You'd be 60-75% of the way towards being able to install the bushing if you had the front suspension of your 4R apart to that point.

But, do what makes you feel comfortable. A lot of 4Rs never experience the issue.

 

Thanks to all. I assumed this problematic needle bearing is what the driveshaft yoke turned in. Now I see it is actually on the axle - specifically, the driver's side front axle. Is that correct? There is no problem with the passenger side?

 

Correct

 

I'd wait until you hit 60K post the drivetrain warranty.

 

If you lift, might as well do the bushing while you're in there, because you’d probably be denied warranty coverage on account of the lift.

Otherwise, wait till 60k and do it all then. Hopefully you have a quiet one, because warranty is a pain in the butt. They have to acknowledge the sound before they do anything. They chose to blame my “off-road” tires (Stock size ko2s) even though the “tire noise” went away when I put it in 4wd. Mine had the noise on the first drive home since new, but it was intermittent. I added a lift at 14k miles, but the dealer didnt even blame that. They just said it was the tires lol. I just dont have the patience to deal with dealers.

 

Thanks for the Pics! Saved me a day with those. Just as a data point I’m putting a bushing in a stock 2005 Sport with right at 148K on the clock. After installing new Toyota CV axles, I was getting a lot of vibration in the driver floor board and up through the steering wheel at 40-60mph. Don’t know about faster, as I didn’t want to put any unnecessary wear on those made outta gold cv axles I just put in lol. Once I felt the slop in the drivers side tulip I knew that was it….before I even started searching for a solution on them interwebs. 4WH did not affect it, still vibrated. I’ve watched a ton of videos on how to pull and replace the bushing, but no one mentioned that the bushing was longer than the bearing. ECGS doesn’t even mention it or give the specs so I was kind of antsy about shoving that thing in there. Still a little antsy about whether I will ever be able to pull it out if necessary given that extra length. I ordered all the ECGS tools and the bearing just slid right out. Going to go back out to the garage and put the bushing in.

Installed the bushing, new seal, reassembled, test drove. Waah, waah, waaaaaah. No help, vibration is still there no change. The symptoms were spot on, but that wasn’t the problem. Now moving on to possible wheel bearing problem although there appears to be no play in the wheel.

 

@2Sloe steering rack?

 

Also check tire balance and alignment. My KO2's go out of balance all the time and when the alignment is off it grabs the individual treads and gives a good vibration as well.

 

Yes, that is correct. I put manual hubs on the 2nd gen and my diesel and love them, it offers the option of 2wd lo range AND greatly reduced wear on the front driveline, not to mention they drive like a 2wd on the street without all the unnecessary stuff spinning.
You can always leave them locked. If hubs were available for my 5th gen I would be first in line.

 

Forgive me if this has already been answered but what would be a possible cause if it's not the needle bearing?
I tried the 4-Hi and then back to 2-Hi and I can't tell much of a difference. I'll try it again tomorrow and see if I can notice anything or not.

My symptoms are much like everyone else's.
Road hum that starts around 40mph and sounds like I'm running some really aggressive off-road tires, but I'm not. I'll also feel/hear it when I'm coming to a stop.
Vehicle is a stock '22 SR5 with the stock Nitto A/T tires.

The vehicle was great a week ago after getting my 20k maintenance and a front end alignment. Then I took a road trip from Dallas to Denver and back. I started the trip at about 19,300 miles and got home with a little over 21,000 miles, so right in the neighborhood of other people's needle bearing failures.
While in Colorado I had a full-length roof rack installed and did one very easy trail(Mammoth Gulch Rd). The trail was 90% embedded rocks and wasn't difficult but it was extremely bumpy and tossed us around pretty good. Initially after the trail we were pretty impressed with how the 4Runner performed on the road after the trail. Almost like it was built for that kind of use or something....
The rack only weighs 70lb so I can't imagine that's having any effect on it. I'd also considered wind noise from the new rack but I can tell with certainty that the hum is drivetrain related as it speeds up and slows down with the vehicle.
I don't know that I noticed it too much on the way back from Denver but I've definitely noticed in since I've been back and driving locally.

Thanks in advance!

 

Another day in the shop another needle bearing replacement!!! 2023, 6k miles, factory 2" spacer lift. Had the shakes and the dealer was going to replace the differential.