Reasons for huge price differences between early 5th gen and late 4th gen?

I've been looking into getting another 4Runner (we used to have a 2004) and I've been quite surprised at what appears to be a significant price difference between early 5th gen models and late 4th gens.

Specifically, late 4th gen 4x4s can be found all over the 4-figure price range. But, no matter where I look (Cars, CarGurus, FB marketplace, etc), I cannot find a single 5th gen 4x4, no matter how early or how many miles, for a 4-figure price. They're all $10K+.

Is there a reason for this? I have my ideas about why it is, but I wanted to see what y'all have to say. I really can't stomach the idea of spending ten grand on a vehicle with well over 200K miles no matter what it is.

 

I'd say the 5th gen is a more refined vehicle. Plus it had more peak power than even the V8. If you are looking at 4wd, you probably run into more 5th gen trails that will cost a premium. Only the 09 4th gen had a trial option but that would more than likely pull more money than a 5th gen.

 

I'd say everything is more expensive now and price on used vehicles is crazy. Especially on 4Runners since they are probably most reliable 4x4 vehicles out there.

 

Supply and demand.

Less people want a 4th gen because they tend to have higher miles...........and they're ugly.

 

Even the ones that have miles comparable to each other see the 5th gen being significantly more expensive than the 4th gen, where model year recency shouldn't account for such a huge difference. I figured that early 5th gens are holding their value because newer 5th gens aren't significantly different, while 4th gens are significantly different from the newer 4Runners out there. I'm trying to tease out what the significant differences are between the 4th and 5th generations. A 2009 could have the 4.0 V6 and a 5-speed trans, a 2010 has the same powertrain, and as I understand, the powertrain has remained unchanged through 2023. Surely the interior dimensions are the same across the 5th generation, but I don't know how they differ, functionally, from the 4th generation. (I found that the 2nd gen Sequoia was actually smaller, at least for our purposes, than the 1st gen. The engine got more giddyup in 2005, so we sprang for a later 1st gen when we got ours three years ago.)

As for "ugly", that is a matter of opinion. I don't get the appeal of the 5th gen, in terms of its looks. It's not terrible, but I have a slight preference for the 4th gen.

Of course, I much prefer truly vintage cars (generally pre-1980), so my opinion may not reflect the majority.

 

Agreed. There's nothing mechanically different between a 4.0L 4th gen and 5th gen.

I honestly think a lot of it comes down to looks.

This is just my opinion though.

 

I think you are right, 5th gens hold a much higher vqlue because it’s the current gen.

When I was looking for used 4runners a few years back, I could not justify the jump in price to the 5th gens. Especially since these things are traded around all over the country. Very likely that if it lived inthe rust belt, the frame wasnt taken care of and are rusted pretty bad.

All the examples I looked at had more rust than I was willing to accept…. The dealers tended to play dumb and sold all of them as if they were pristine. Ultimately I decided to hold off until I could buy new.

 

OP, you might appreciate this video. Enjoy

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=by3fumvXrfU

 

Pot, meet kettle.

 

Also, not sure what people are reading but no, the 5th gen V6 has never had more power than either of the 4th gen V8s. The two versions (with and without VVTi) were rated at 235hp and 320 lbft, and 268hp and 315 lbft respectively. The 5th gen VVTi V6 makes 270 hp and 278 lbft.

If anyone is unaware, hp and torque are two sides of a coin. HP is simply a function of torque at a specific engine rpm: HP = T x [engine rpm] / 5252. In other words, torque and HP are equal in every engine made at 5252 rpms. Further reading https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15347872/horsepower-vs-torque-whats-the-difference/

 

The 4th gen is the old body style, the 5th gen is still current.

It's not about the model year, it's about the generation.

One can buy a 2010 5th gen and a good amount of people will think it's a new vehicle.

When I bought my 13 it was 6 years old, and multiple people asked me if it was brand new.

Also, the 4th gen is ugly.

 

Adding to that, I'd argue that tq is much more important than peak HP in a vehicle like a 4Runner. I would much rather have 230hp/320tq than what we get with the current 4.0.

Peak HP is essentially meaningless because it occurs so high in the rev range.

 

Well it's the most updated 1GR with dual VVT-i.

GX.

 

It seems to me that the 5th gen doesn’t have low end torque which is why many complain about its power. I believe you have to get the rpm up there to benefit from the rated torque.

I’m curious what the 4th Gen curb weight is compared to the 5th Gen?

Honestly, I wasn’t that crazy about the 5th Gen styling, mainly the front end, but it grew on me.

 

depends on trim but if I recall, 5th Gen are roughly 400 lbs heavier.

It makes a big difference in acceleration and handling characteristics. My 03 felt very different from my 19.

 

I'm not a fan of the 5th Gen 4R front either and it has gradually grown on me. But, I definitely prefer the front on the Tacoma.

 

Concur on the lack of low end tq, unfortunately that's very common with modern engines.

Also concur that both versions of the 5th gen "face" are fairly goofy/awkward looking. Especially the 14+, its trying way too hard to look aggressive.

Honestly the cleanest looking one is the LTD Nightshade edition.

I too would prefer something more like the 3rd gen Taco front end.

 

They both had the same V8 at the same time and sales were still about the same for both their markets.

 

I ended up paying about $28k for a 2016 sr5 4x4 earlier this year in Florida, and I thought that was as good of a deal I could I get from a dealership in FL considering the market.

 

What I was trying to say is that Lexus people will still buy the Lexus. I would have if I bought during this market since my 2019 TRDP was only 42 at the end of 2018.

 

Styling is very personal of course. I didn't have a problem with my 4th gen when I owned it, but in comparison to my 5th gen, I prefer the latter even though the storm trooper grill is admittedly a bit over the top. With the 4th gen, it's mostly the front end, C-Pillar and I don't care for the deeper fender trim. I would still drive either one though, especially if I could have my 4th gen V8 back.

That said, while I would much prefer the V8 and creature comforts of the GX, that thing to me is one of the ugliest SUVs on the market from nose to tail. Awkward lines, proportions, and that god awful grill.

 

prices are thru the roof...for used...and it's high for nice Gen 3's as well..

 

You just contradicted yourself. Power IS force multiplied by speed. In any unit system. Torque is just rotational force. (Note the 5252 is just a unit conversion factor for imperial units)

The piece you missed is that peak torque and peak HP are always quoted at specific rpm’s, and usually not the same rpm. If you get the rpm that peak HP is quoted for each engine and do the math you will see that both V8s are actually making LESS torque at high rpm than the V6 has. They must else the HP number would be equal or grater.

let’s do the math....

1GR makes 270hp @5600rpm

270x(5252/5600) = 253.22lb*ft @ 5600rpm

I had to look it up but the bigger V8 made 260hp@5400rpm

260x(5252/5400) = 252.87lb*ft @ 5400rpm


Somebody is going to say, “but hey they are almost identical”… Again remember these are at different rpm’s. We would have to go find dyno graphs and pick the same exact rpm and compare the hp numbers to calculate torque. Since the v8 peaked at 5400, by 5600 5e no will be a bit lower and thus the torque is going to be lower than the 1GR at the same rpm.

 

So all of you are falling into the same trap as the fellow above. "modern engine have no low end torque" is just a matter of perception.

The flip side of that coin is that "older engines had no high end power" The thing that has changed is that modern technologies like variable valve timing and stronger valvetrains and better intake designs have allowed the engineers to build engines that breathe better at high RPM and maintain wide toque plateaus to develop a lot more horsepower at higher RPMs. You can gear taller to take advantage of this benefit and get the power needed to meet your performance targets in a smaller, lighter engine. Better overall performance and economy. The only issue as that drivers are used to the "rumble" of a big engine at low RPM so they are afraid to use the left pedal and run up the revs. The power and rpms are there to be used. Dont be afraid. Nothing will break and actually you are putting LESS stress and wear by revving it higher in low gears than by lugging it down. When I was in my 20s I drone an Acura RSX (ie Integra) with a 7,800 rpm redline and a 6 speed and I pegged that thing. every day. for 11 years. And 100k+ miles. Still drove like new the day I traded it and the only issue it ever had besides regular fluid and tire changes was a secondary o2 sensor that went bad at 90k.

The industry was perfectly capable of building engines in the 1960s that had just as much high end HP as street cars do today (look at HP ratings of 1960s Formula1 cars) the reason they didn't is that running really hot cams like that made the engines very peaky and lower end torque and idle suffered horrendously. Hence the "lumpy" idle of restored 60s muscle cars with hot cams. Variable valve timing today allows us to have both our cake and eat it too. Without having to drag a 7 liter engine around loafing at low rpm hooked up to a 3sp tranny in a 6000lb frame and get 8mpg.


If you don't believe me, do this. Look at the evolution of engines of similar size many decades apart. If you where to go look at dyno curves from a Ford 302 from the 1960s, and then look at the dyno curve of the latest gen "new" Boss 302 from the 2010s you would probably see that down low they are similar (not exactly the same but closer than you would expect) but the modern engine pulls far ahead at higher RPMs and revs out farther.

 

I seem to remember from my youth a rule of thumb that related bore and stroke to where maximum torque existed in the rpm range.

But then again, my memories from that long ago resemble dreams …

 

Driving my 4th gen V8 after my 5th gen feels like going from a regular car to a diesel. I miss the torque, the sound, and the general drivability of the V8. If that V8 was in the 5th gen it would've been an ideal SUV, at least for me...

 

If you guys want to see the relationship between HP and torque, check out Nick’s dyno tests. Yes he’s an old school Mopar guy but he’s really good at what he does. Great channel.

https://m.youtube.com/c/NicksGarage/videos

 

The 4th gen is really an ugly design imo. The 3rd gen looks much better. The 5th gen looks better as well.

 

I am getting a new ORP next week. Have not driven one yet. I sold a 2016 Tacoma with the 3.5 V6. I know the Tacoma is lighter than a 4 Runner. How does the power of the 3.5 V6 Tacoma compare to 4.0 V6 in a 4 Runner, both auto transmission? I am not expecting it to be fast by any means. But if I was getting on the Interstate, the 3.5 Tacoma was adequate. I think it was the direct injection mode of the Atkinson cycle engine. The Tacoma had a 6 speed auto transmission, which many complained about. I am just hoping the 4 Runner is reliable. But for anyone who had driven both, were you disappointed with the port injection (only) 4.0 power and 5 speed auto transmission, or was getting on the Interstate just fine? Thanks