So I test drove a Subaru Outback Wilderness

But I would love that fantasy statement gets popular so we can keep the 4Runner prices in control.

 

Did you seriously just create this account to come and comment on this 1 thread?

It sounds like you have no experience with the 4Runner in the first place. Things are solid in a 4Runner. Let’s check back in on this in 20 years and I am sure the 4Runner will still be going.

Oh and ask me which vehicle made it through deep snow? Was it the Subaru, 4Runner, or f-350 dually 4wd? Well it wasn’t the f-350 and the Subaru did okay but when it got deeper they had to wait until the snow was plowed. But the 4Runner kept going.

I would be happy to meet you on any trailhead here in N.C. and we can do that comparison and I am 100% certain you will be biting your tongue on a few of those statements. But honestly I doubt you are close to me so it will probably never happen.

 

Subie fan-boi comes to a 4Runner site and expects everyone to agree with him how terrible our 4Runners are . Now if he had come to talk about how owning a WRX would be complimentary to owning a 4R as well, maybe.......

 

My wife has a 2017 outback limited. Its has its quirks like any other car. Its been a very dependable vehicle for us. But Suburas are known for road noise, it drove me crazy. Then I realized there's no sound deadening on the back half of the car. I bought some cheap sound mat and now its pretty quiet but not even close to how quiet my 4r is

But this was our first and last subie. I think we will get her a new rav4 or some sort of toyota/lexus hybrid

 

Venza is a Lexus with a Toyota badge.

We had the previous version gas with Active Torque Control AWD and it was very refined than a Rav4 that time and AWD system was good on pavement vs Dynamic Torque Control AWD on Rav4. Now newer gas Rav4 has disconnetable drive line dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD on some gas models. For Hybrid with e-AWD i think they both might be same.

 

When driving my Forster I constantly find myself looking around to see if maybe I left a window open, a door open trunk open. It’s unreal the cheapness of it.

 

Did your girlfriend leave you and take the cats?

 

I once brought my Forester back to dealership few months after buying it to have them look at it and make sure they didn’t forget to put something in it when they built it b/c it’s so loud and harsh ride.

Outback and Ascent drive a lot better and nicer inside and less road, wind, tire, engine noise

can’t wait to get a 4Runner though

 

My wife actually just bought an Outback Wilderness 2 days ago, trading in a Crosstrek manual. We have separate finances so she didn't even consult me, she just did her own research and BAM "surprise mother fucker!" showed up at home with the Wilderness.

I have never liked the look of them, too "look at me" for my tastes.

I also hate hate hate CVTs as a general rule.

Pros - I don't think it feels cheap inside at all, it actually feels quite nice. Seats are comfortable.
Space is useable. It's fast / has good acceleration and it's quite smooth (so you end up going faster than you might intend). Road noise is minimal. I have a 3/4 mile easy trail through my woods that I cut just wide enough to get the 4R back there to do chores and she took it out there and it did fine on some minimal mud, creek crossing, and some ruts so I wouldn't say it's incapable off road as long as you recognize the limitations of CVT and no low range. Brakes are great. Corners well.

Cons - The giant tablet with all controls on it sucks IMO. Too much going on there and I don't want my HVAC controls on a digital screen. Nanny stuff like "Eyesight" doesn't impress me. Cruise control is backwards as fuck (hold to change by 1 mph, quick press to change by 5 mph). Auto stop is weirdly violent and lags a little on restart. I think the cost of the vehicle is too much, she's in hers for like $39,000 which I think is excessive for what should be a cheaper runabout.

Personally I think the Subaru AWD platform shines best in a small cheap old tech car like the Crosstrek and IMO it's got to be a manual. Shit, a nicely equipped Crosstrek manny is $24,000 which IMO is an incredible value.

So in summary the OW is ok - if not a little overpriced and unnecessarily tekkie, and it violates the standard that I think of when I think of Subaru - which is cheap but decent little AWD cars like the Crosstrek.

 

It is just that Subarus are disposable vehicles, once they are worn out they aren’t worth rebuilding where a 4Runner is.

Auto Guide top ten 2021 cars that hold their value.
Toyota has 3 in the top ten.
Subaru has 0.

Edit….

KBB also had the 3 Toyotas in the 2021 top 10 and Subaru has none.
5 yr resale value retained:
4Runner 58.6%
Outback 45.2%

 

Yeah, Subaru doesn't seem to be well build cars (per my office bud)..

 

I had a 1998 legacy Outback that went an additional 200,000 miles after I sold it at 123,000 miles. The only reason it wasn't on the road any longer was that the lady's son-in-law rear-ended a truck with it...

I blindly bought a 2011 Outback.

I had transmission trouble codes within 6 weeks of buying it. Within 2 years of buying it, I had reported it to the NHTSA. I was reversing up a semi steep driveway, the car stalled and I started creeping forward towards my children. The stalled engine really affected the braking system. I floored it and I was still creeping, the electronic parking brake took a long time to engage.

The transmission problems continued, of course their technicians couldn't recreate it and the regional tech wanted me to take an entire day off of work during a really bad time for the industry I was working in, missing work was not acceptable to my manager or the company owner.

Then one of my children was about to go to school in a mountainous region with snow, I decided to have the timing belt changed 15,000 miles earlier than recommended so that she didn't have to deal with any of the service. After doing all the work and putting the thing back together, they said it my head gasket had failed.

I was initially quoted $4,400 by the dealership for the repair if they didn't have to machine the block. I raised holy hell and within 2 weeks, Subaru Corporate had offered me a brand new 2020 Outback at half off. $15,000. By then I had been driving a 20 around as a loaner and that car was a bigger piece of sh!t because all the technology sucked. I had emergency braking on curved freeway on-ramps, changes in pavement caused the lane departure system to freak out. No thank you. (Yes, I regret not buying the car because I could have result the car at a profit. Really bad move on my part.) My Outback had 89,000 miles on the odometer, you could have eaten off of the engine and my oil changes were religiously done at 5,000 miles.

I went two years without a car of my own. I bought everybody else in my family Toyotas. I even had a false start for myself with a Prius V that had a blown head gasket itself (since learning that 10,000 mile oil change intervals are not good for an engine by the time they're 150,000 miles). I bought a 2014 4Runner SR5 that the dealership didn't have title to and they bought the car back plus extra for the investment of parts and modifications I put into it.

Toyota is by no means perfect, their certified used program is a joke, and they've got a lot of holes in holding their dealerships accountable. That said, I bought three RAV4s (15, two 18s) and a 20 4R Off Road since March, 2020. Three of them were certified and I paid below private party KBB on three of them.

When I have a chance to talk to Subaru owners, I give them tips on how to make their drivetrain last as long as possible and encourage them to check for certain problems and scream loudly at Subaru Corporate when those problems come up.

 

yup. I can’t wait to get a 4Runner.

 

It's anecdotal I know (and, in fairness, I've had several family members who enjoyed various Subaru models for 100's of thousand of miles.), but I had a 2021 Outback for about 7500 miles and six months between 4Runners. It had some very nice features, and was a smooth and quick car. But the problems outweighed all of that very quickly. The body panels were as thin as aluminum foil. I had four paintless dent repairs done in six months. (Compared to TWO over three different 4Runners!). All of the electronic nanny features (full disclosure--outside of BSM, I don't care for any of them) were unrefined compared to similarly equipped BMWs and even Hondas that I've driven with the same safety features. I eventually turned them all off, resentful that I had no doubt paid thousands for features too annoying to use. Ultimately, the big ipad that controlled EVERYTHING became a huge pain in the ass. It would randomly mute the voice directions from the GPS. It would randomly shut off the audio (no matter the source). Or it would randomly turn the volume all the way up. Occasionally, the whole thing would turn off, making navigation, audio, and HVAC completely dead. On several occasions, a piercing sound (like the emergency broadcast system) would start coming out of the speakers, and could only be silenced by pulling over and turning the car off. Subaru's answer was that they were "working on a fix" that might be months away. I was fortunate to trade it in for about $500 more than I'd paid for it.

 

My fiance has a 17 Outback, and I don't mind driving it at all. It has nice acceleration and is smooth compared to my 4Runner (which is to be expected). Overall, it doesn't feel cheap and is a solid vehicle that hasn't had any problems. And it's nice to have higher mpg sometimes I wouldn't ever choose one over my 4R. But that's why there are options, right?

As for the "wilderness" Outback: no, thank you

 

I have a '22 ORP and a '22 Outback Wilderness. I've have a bunch of Subarus since back in '82. They're great for snow and ice. I have a 3-5 mile drive on rough dirt roads depending on the way I go to get to the highway. Both are great cars for that. The Subaru is good in winter since it's AWD and it's amazing on sheet ice with Blizzaks. I plan to keep the ORP for awhile but will trade the OBW in 2-3 years since I think the ORP will be more reliable but the OBW should be fine until I trade it in.

 

There's a reason for obstacles named "Subaru Hill", "Subaru Rock". To keep them where they belong, in the whole foods parking lot.

 

I hope the next gen 4Runner don’t start cutting corners like using aluminum foil thin panels, thin windshield glass, no sound deadening, thin seats with minimum padding, glitchy cheap tech distractions that nobody really wants, pinching in the tops like the Land Rover defender or bronco to save a few shekels

I might just buy 2023 to be safe


My previous car was a 2006 Camry. Drove like a Cadillac, 2018 left it at dealership to get work done and they gave me a loaner car. Whole day I thought I was driving a new Corolla and was unimpressed on its cheap feel and glad I owned a Camry instead of a Corolla. Was shocked when I returned it and noticed it was really a next gen Camry ‍♂️

Next gen 4Runner Better not cut corners!!! ✊

 

Ain't nothing getting better man. Things are more and more disposable each generation of manufacture.

 

I could’ve written your post a year or so ago….why we bought a 2022 4R…..after we saw the design trend of the new Tundra we bailed on the plan to get a 6th gen which at the time was to come in 2023.

 

I have only heard two people say that they're going to get the new generation of 4Runner and Tacoma.

Both have more money in their wallet than I have in my bank accounts.

They're going to turbos. Toyota or not, turbos do not last like a regular naturally aspirated engine.

I guess, for people buying trucks just to drive around town in a truck, fine. If they need to tow something or carry a load, I have a feeling this isn't going to go so well.

This is all for the sake of politically-motivated fuel efficiency requirements... Yet, these cars failing at <150,000 miles means that there needs to be more cars built, more of a carbon footprint is generated when cars fail early. Regular gasToyotas, if maintained properly, easily last 25%-100% longer.

The only hope is that Toyota's engineers are somehow defying the entire history of automotive engine design.

 

I think you're forgetting the history of this vehicle. Among the most reliable 4Runners ever built was a [gasp] turbo. 22R-TE.

 

That is not apples to apples.

That was a cast iron engine block. EPA standards weren't such that they were underpowering the engine and using the turbo to compensate for it.

Plug turbo into the 2020s... It ain't the same. I could have mentioned the success of the turbo diesels by Mercedes-Benz, I guess, too. The context of turbos in today's automotive market is not a pretty one.

 

Wouldn't under powering the motor make it last longer?

As opposed to trying to get full power out of a motor and then adding a turbo on top of it?

 

I'll try to relate this in an analogous form. You could buy a 100W RMS stereo and put it next to a 500W RMS stereo. Each stereo has the same make and model of speaker cabinets attached to it. Turn the 500 watt stereo's volume control to 7. Then, turn to 100 watt stereo up to match the 500 watt stereo's volume. The volume is the same, agreed? The problem is that the 100 watt stereo is pushing it at its maximum and little spikes of voltage shoot through. You are more likely to blow those very same speakers that are being given 500 watts because you're overdriving the 100 w amplifier to create the same level of volume.

A 1.4-liter 4 cylinder Nissan engine can do 95MPH just like a Ferrari.

Again, we're not doing an apples to apples here. Sorry.

The only thing that is accomplished by putting a weak engine with a turbo is that you get better cruising gas mileage. When you need torque, when you need to pick up some speed, you're pushing it and you will wear it out sooner.

 

I get what you're saying and agree to a certain extent. If you're pushing the motor (speaker) to its limit, then yes, the turbo would most likely fail sooner. But most people aren't turning things up to 11 all the time.

I still don't understand how earlier turbo successes like the 22R-TE are not comparable.

 

You ever hear old timers talk about how it was easy to work on cars 40 years ago? That's because the engines were intrinsically simpler.

Cast iron vs aluminum, VVT vs. what they had 40 years ago, throttle by cable or electronics, mass airflow sensors, mechanical versus electronic, computer versus analog.

If anybody can succeed at this, like I alluded to on my original post, it's Toyota. The problem is it's still a turbo and it's being put in a very heavy vehicles that are also expected to tow and carry load and, amazingly, people like to go off-road with them.

Another audio analogy as electrical engineering is the accusation on my degree... The Beatles played Vox AC30 amplifiers. 30W of 3rd degree burns on your fingers A-class amplifier tubes.

Now, I can plug my guitars into my laptop that has amp emulation algorithms that recreate that amp and dozens of others. I could take that Vox amp, lean on it and make it fall off of its stand and it will likely still work just fine except that the dings on the corner will lower its resale value to some Beatles geek considerably.

I could do the same with my laptop, then it's down to Costco to buy a new laptop.

###

 

Oh, you reminded me of something I got really pissed about with my 2011 Outback... My leaf vacuum attachment on my yard blower, made of ABS plastic and maybe weighed 6 or 7 oz slipped out of my hand maybe three or four inches away from my Outback a glancing blow dented the fender.

If I haven't posted it here before, the CEO of Subaru went on an apology tour and did interviews apologizing for all he put loyal customers through. I think I saw the interview very early 2020.

 

My wife's outback has more truck space then my 4runner(obviously not in height) but its a longer