The Future of the SUV

Interesting article in Road and Track about the Land Cruiser. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a32718028/2020-toyota-land-cruiser-review-july/

It describes what enthusiasts have lost -- and the unfortunate direction in which we're heading with increasing certainty -- due to "active safety" technology and computerized solutions to automotive challenges that are better addressed mechanically.

Well worth a read (and a regretful sigh).

 

One of the reasons I like the new Bronco is that it's showing that the enthusiast market can be profitable. Most companies are going for the majority of their buyers wants, and that's not what the fewer, more passionate, enthusiasts want.

Toyota builds these models but rarely do the people who own them really use the goodies. They all want to "have it and not need it," and therefore think they are superior, but what they really want is cushy ride, MPG, big engines, creature comforts. If it sounds like I'm saying that what people want, and what people say they want are two different things....that's because it is.

Most people who drive Jeeps mod them heavily and never leave pavement. They want to live that life but don't actually go and live it.

Don't sweat the decline of the SUV, because some companies like Ford are listening in the offroad market, and Dodge for sports cars. It will take a lot of noise, however, to get Toyota to do something wild like that, it's not their jam. But, if enough attention makes it to them, we might even see the re-release of an actual Jeep-like Bronco-esque FJ, not the strange thing that went around in the mid 2000s.

 

The market spoke long ago for the Land Cruiser in the US. Utilitarian and a mountain goat, or comfy capable hauler. The comfy capably hauler won out. Still, in the US, the Cruiser has always been a niche vehicle. I'm sure there's a "lost its way" article for the 100 series., too.

The Tacoma and 4Runner have the off road spot locked up for Toyota.

 

There's quite a bit of difference between the Sequoia and LC. Other than being 3 row V8 SUVs, they are very different beasts.

 

The biggest thing wrong with the Land Cruiser is that it’s a Toyota that costs $85,000! That’s insane.

 

I wonder which way Toyota will go with the next 4runner. The Highlander is basically the same size and towing capacity, which should allow them to go as utilitarian as they like with the 4runner. If they released the next gen with a solid front axle and room for 35's, I would really consider trading in on one.

Unfortunately, as mentioned already, Toyota seems to build for the masses rather than for the niche market. There's probably not enough of the hard core off-road market available for them to put the effort in. I would love for them to prove me wrong.

Good article. Even if it was a bit painful to read.

 

Well, I suspect if they made your vehicle they would need to put a larger power plant in, do you think the current v6 would push 35’s easily?

 

With the right gearing, maybe. But, the next gen will almost surely have a smaller, hopefully boosted motor and more gears.

 

you and that damn boosted motor idea.

 

I think that If Toyota see's they are leaving money on the table they will do it. They built the FJ in modern times after all.

 

Beats the hell out of that psuedo-atkins BS they tried in the Tacoma.

 

But nothing beats displacement!


(Says guy that then goes and buys the supercharger)

 

The FJ cruiser hardly deserved to be associated with the old FJ40 Landcruisers. They would need to do something a little more impressive to actually compete with Wrangler.

 

yes but there was not much Toyota about FJ. Poor MPG, poor cargo space, poor seating space. Great build quality as usual but not a typical toyota formula, which means they are willing to deviate.

 

Lol! Yeah, big motors are fun. But, we better just accept that they're going away.

Personally, I prefer smaller turbocharged motors. You get more potential power than a normally aspirated motor, and better fuel economy.

Oh, yeah! Agreed! Like I said, I hope they prove me wrong.

I also agree that if Toyota figures they're really missing out on some money, they might do something out of the ordinary again. I just would hope that it's more than a half-hearted attempt the next time.

 

Toyota has disappointed me with their sports car efforts. Decades ago they made some very good Supras and some epic Supras, plus the under appreciated MR2. But really nothing since then until the BRZ/FRS/86, which while a legitimate home run IMO is really more Subaru than Toyota, and then the underwhelming effort with the new Supra, which even if you love it is 90% BMW.

Toyota has so many excellent products in other categories, It's a shame they haven't invested their talents and resources into a real sports car of their own.

 

I had an '87 MR2 with T-tops. Tons of fun, even though it was well past it's prime by the time I owned it. The 2nd gen looked more like an exotic car than a Toyota, IMO. Beautiful cars!

I also had a 2nd gen Supra, before they were cool. I dreamt of owning a MKIV, but Paul Walker and Vin Diesel sent prices through the roof before I could get my hands on one.

Agreed about the MKV. They're great vehicles, but they're not really a Toyota. Just like the BRZ/FR-S/86.

 

Toyota has some some poor choices collaborating with other manufactures. GM in particular stands out. The Geo Prizm was a rebadged Corolla. The Pontiac Vibe was a rebadged Matrix. Meanwhile Toyota got a right hand drive cavalier to sell as a Toyota Cavalier.

 

Corporate behemoths often can’t help but act like corporate behemoths. It’s remarkable to me that a giant like this has maintained high quality as consistently as they have, given the pressures to engage in these silly kinds of collaborations that just dilute the brand.

 

I had a 3rd Gen supra turbo with the removable roof. that was such a fun (although heavy) car. The new Supra is a serious dissapointment and the 86 just seems like a very bland car in most respects. Nissan at least has the GTR but other than that the japanese have not kept up in the sports car market well. Miata yes I know but its no beast like old 300z, Supras, GTRs etc.

 

Agreed overall but I must speak in defense of the BRZ/FRS/86. That is one of the purest sports cars in decades and arguably one of only two such cars available today that don’t cost a fortune. THAT is a real drivers car, a car for people who appreciate old school sports car dynamics. And yet it has a decent sized trunk and even a backseat you can use in a pinch.

I swear, if I could only have two cars and they had to average around the typical cost of a new car these days (roughly 35k), they would be the 4R and the BRZ. There’d be a good case for the Miata instead of the BRZ, but it’s so damn impractical due to its tiny dimensions.

Now, if money was no object....

 

Surprisingly, I fit just fine in a BRZ/FRS, I don't fit in a ND Miata (but do fit in the previous gens, I had an NA for a few years). I'd love to have a BRZ as a fun car, if I didn't already have the project car taking up space in the garage.

As far as Land Cruiser/4Runner, in the US, which do you think is the more valuable name for Toyota? It seems possible that Toyota MAY take the 4Runner even more in the off road/trail direction, given that the Highlander exists as a three row non-minivan people mover, and simply drop the LC here. It'd be a shame, but I don't see them de-contenting the Land Cruiser, it'll probably just continue on in some Lexus name, and be dropped as a Toyota in the US.

 

I actually really like the Nissan 370z. I know it has some shortcomings, but I love the way they look.

The GTR is a beast, but not within most people's budgets.

I do wish Toyota would have done something similar to the Z with the new Supra. Keep it in-house. I'd rather see the 3.5 turbo out of the LS in it than a BMW motor. I'm not sure what they were thinking.

 

The 4R sells like hotcakes, while the LC seems to have lost its market (and its way). So from a financial perspective you'd think it's the 4R. But certainly, the LC is one of the brightest jewels of the Toyota empire. It's been not only iconic but objectively superlative for decades. It's in a class with the 911, and that's such a rarified class I'm not sure what else would even qualify for inclusion.

 

Agreed. I hope they and Subaru neither abandon nor screw up the BRZ/86. Yes, it could use a bit more power. But please not at the expense of putting a turbo in there. A flat six like in an old school Porsche? Now that could be sweet. But as it is, you're getting a front-mounted NA engine, RWD with mechanical LSD, manual trans, two doors, a weight that's from a bygone era, a ridiculously low center of gravity, a tail-happy demeanor, and no freaking safety nannies -- all in 2020! These things should be cryogenically frozen so future generations can know what driving a pure sports car is like, and to remind everyone that it's possible for a modern reliable vehicle to also have a soul.

 

Wait the BRZ is the same thing as the 86? lol I didnt know. I thought the toyota version of the BRZ was called something else. I knew they both made them. They are neat, small tires and all they got Jeremy clarksons approval!

 

Z cars are neat and can handle power, I forgot about those. The new supra was just such a dissapointment once it hit the streets. Nothing about that car appeals to me.

 

I can't figure out what people have against turbos.

The 2JZ-GTTE in the MKIV Supra was and still is one of the most sought after motors of all time.

I'd take a turbo Toyota motor any day over that lame Porsche motor.

I do agree with the rest of your post, though.

 

Lol, I'd never blame anyone for liking turbos, they're just not for me. I had one of BMW's recent turbo sixes and it was a marvel of engineering. Gobs of torque with an incredibly flat curve that started way down low at like 1800 RPM, virtually undetectable lag, smooth as butter throughout the rev range, surprising efficiency for its power. But character? Not that I could discern. I much preferred the NA straight six I had before. Way less HP and torque, and yet it sang. It spun as smooth as silk but in a way that was more mechanical yet felt alive. Like a living machine instead of a computerized machine. It felt like it had a soul. I'm sure there are turbos out there that are also something like this (the V6 in the Alfa Qaudrifolglio?) but that's a seriously expensive place to play in.

The most appealing turbo I actually spent time with was the modern 2.0 VW motor in a GTI. Maybe that's because the rest of the car wasn't wrapped in layer after layer of sound isolation and numb steering (I'm looking at you BMW!). The worst was in the Subaru WRX. That thing might have the stupidest turbo implementation / programming in the universe. Yet that didn't make it feel alive -- just broken. In any case, the engines that have had the best feel for me have been NA, especially the straight sixes. Plus, all else being equal, I lean toward mechanical simplicity and mechanical instead of computerized solutions.

So my daily driver if money was no object? Maybe a 911 Reimagined by Singer.

 

Yes, indeed. You may be thinking about the car also being known as the FRS back when Toyota had the Scion brand, but Toyota renamed it to 86 when Scion ended. I think it was always 86 under the Toyota banner outside of markets where Scion existed, too. It has remained the BRZ through the entirety of its life under Subaru.

Also, technically Subaru makes them both, though Toyota sells the Toyota version under their brand.